Was B-4 treated unethically?

[Jordanis]

Shinzon did not have the motivation that Khan had. Nor the acting chops of Ricardo Montalban. What makes the space battle good is the battle of wills. Khan hates, Kirk is angry, there's hot emotions flowing everywhere and it makes things exciting. It's what made First Contact good, that Picard was facing an enemy that really got under his skin, made him angry like we so rarely see him, and for good reason.

The best movies take a good villain from the series and give him room to play. Things are most likely to fall flat when they have to make a new villain.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Shinzon did not have the motivation that Khan had. Nor the acting chops of Ricardo Montalban. What makes the space battle good is the battle of wills. Khan hates, Kirk is angry, there's hot emotions flowing everywhere and it makes things exciting. It's what made First Contact good, that Picard was facing an enemy that really got under his skin, made him angry like we so rarely see him, and for good reason.

The best movies take a good villain from the series and give him room to play. Things are most likely to fall flat when they have to make a new villain.

Yes, excellent way to put it. Passion is a great factor in battle. I wonder who from the TNG series would've been a great villain.

Sela might have been good, if they kept the Romulans in it. Maybe wanting to destroy someone she had a grudge against(Picard) and wipe out her weaker(from her point of view) human heritage.

[Jordanis]

Maybe, but it doesn't hook into the Picard character enough, I don't think. The two best Picard-moments we've had in movies were him vs the Borg and him contemplating family and regrets in Generations (best part of that movie, IMO). Regrets and family is a theme that comes up a number of times for Picard (most of his maybe-intimate relationships seem to trigger it) in the series, and the Borg did him personally a very serious injury.

The hook in STII was that Khan had been done a very serious injury by Kirk, so I think that's the last big hook left to TNG. I can't think of someone who would fit the bill, but my knowledge of TNG is not the most encyclopedic.

It is a thing to note that in the TOS movies, these same three hooks are used for Kirk. There's the aforementioned Khan, but there's also the theme of family regrets with the Doctors Marcus, and the injury done by the Klingons who killed his son that runs through STVI.

Of course, STII has the revenge and the family threads. The use of two major hooks is probably part of why it's such a great movie. If there had been a graceful way to work Picard's regrets into First Contact, we would probably speak of it in the same reverent breath as WOK. I can't think of one, though, and the very... final way that they put the family into Generations makes it even harder.

[Mikey]

As far as B-4 (I voted yes, BTW) Data obviously didn't eliminate his personality by whatever process was used. Additionally, I believe that this was a device to show some more of Data's evolution - the TNG, pre-emotion Data wouldn't have done such a thing, but the newer Data certainly seemed to want to have some sort of legacy/posterity, which desire was strong enough to overcome a black-and-white moral code.

Yes, it cheapened Data's death. Yes, Shinzon was a scary as a baby bunny. Yes, Data's actions regarding B-4 weren't done in accordance with his earlier, strict moral code. NEM had a lot of issues. But it was still fun if you allowed it.

[Captain Seafort]

As far as B-4 (I voted yes, BTW) Data obviously didn't eliminate his personality by whatever process was used. Additionally, I believe that this was a device to show some more of Data's evolution - the TNG, pre-emotion Data wouldn't have done such a thing, but the newer Data certainly seemed to want to have some sort of legacy/posterity, which desire was strong enough to overcome a black-and-white moral code.

That was another problem with the film - the complete lack of emotion from Data, to the extent of specifically stating that he "feels nothing" regarding the discovery of his "brother". It was as if the old emotionless TNG Data was back.

Yes, it cheapened Data's death. Yes, Shinzon was a scary as a baby bunny. Yes, Data's actions regarding B-4 weren't done in accordance with his earlier, strict moral code. NEM had a lot of issues. But it was still fun if you allowed it.

The key problem with comparing Spock's death with Data's was that Spock died because there was no other way to repair the engines and save the ship. Data died because he forgot about the shuttle transporters and handy things called "timers".

[Thorin]

Data has absolutelty no development in any of TNG. In every single episode/film he attempts to discover some more humanity, seemingly succeeds, and then in the next he's back to his complete lack of humanity again.
Generations - cries when Spot is found
First Contact - becomes nearly human, understands emotions
Insurrection - doesn't understand why a little boy is afraid, by the end does understand and becomes kid like
Nemesis - doesn't feel anything for his brother

It's completely retarded. They try to develop his character from lack of humanity to more humanity in every single film and many episodes.

[Sionnach Glic]

Ah yes, the good old 'Reset Button'.

Stuff like that annoys me to no end.

[Jim]

B4 was a Handi-capable android!

[Jordanis]

Data has absolutelty no development in any of TNG. In every single episode/film he attempts to discover some more humanity, seemingly succeeds, and then in the next he's back to his complete lack of humanity again.
Generations - cries when Spot is found
First Contact - becomes nearly human, understands emotions
Insurrection - doesn't understand why a little boy is afraid, by the end does understand and becomes kid like
Nemesis - doesn't feel anything for his brother

It's completely retarded. They try to develop his character from lack of humanity to more humanity in every single film and many episodes.

I think this is one of the ways that they manage to irritate serious Trek fans the most. Yes, in an isolated instance, the thread of Data's quest for humanity is one of the best ones in TNG. But we're not idiots, dammit, nor do we have goldfish-like memories.

I want to see a Trek series that is written by the same team of five or so writers for the ENTIRE RUN. GOOD writers. Maybe then we can have them remember what they've already done, and not have what I presume must be a bunch of new writers getting a basic character brief and apparently assuming that no one else has tread the obvious path with that character before.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Data has absolutelty no development in any of TNG. In every single episode/film he attempts to discover some more humanity, seemingly succeeds, and then in the next he's back to his complete lack of humanity again.
Generations - cries when Spot is found
First Contact - becomes nearly human, understands emotions
Insurrection - doesn't understand why a little boy is afraid, by the end does understand and becomes kid like
Nemesis - doesn't feel anything for his brother

It's completely retarded. They try to develop his character from lack of humanity to more humanity in every single film and many episodes.

I think this is one of the ways that they manage to irritate serious Trek fans the most. Yes, in an isolated instance, the thread of Data's quest for humanity is one of the best ones in TNG. But we're not idiots, dammit, nor do we have goldfish-like memories.

I want to see a Trek series that is written by the same team of five or so writers for the ENTIRE RUN. GOOD writers. Maybe then we can have them remember what they've already done, and not have what I presume must be a bunch of new writers getting a basic character brief and apparently assuming that no one else has tread the obvious path with that character before.

It's sad, that the fans know more about the show then most of the people working on it.

[Jordanis]

And they seem to take it as license to just give up and do whatever! That's the main reason I'm nervous about this Star Trek XI business.

[Mikey]

My thought from day one.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Any Star Trek project makes me nervous these days, at least since the Killer B's put in more plotholes in the series then a piece of swiss cheese.

[Sionnach Glic]

I've been worried about Trek since Threshold. That was the day Trek died, for me.

[Mikey]

That was the day more of my brain cells died than during my week in New Orleans.