Fleet upgrades - Pick your fleet & tell us what you'd re

[Deepcrush]

Yeah, we have 56 subs that carry nuke payloads right now. That I know of atleast. We're working on a new class and I don't know what its payload is yet.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm not just talking about the Ohios, but the carriers - if they don't carry nuclear air-to-surface munitions I'd be surprised. Similarly with the attack subs - I'm not sure if SubRoc and it's successors have been decommissioned or not, but there's another example of a tac-nuke along the same sort of lines as the TTs.

[Thorin]

Nuclear weapons are deployed constantly - what do you think the Trident subs patrol with? The analogy isn't quite accurate, since TTs are, relatively, far less powerful than strategic nukes (probably about equivalent to a small tac-nuke), but the point that you don't wait until you need them to deploy them stands. Have them constantly shipped aboard your key ships (Sovs, Prommies, Akiras), as the US almost certainly does, so if you need to deploy them, all it needs is a quick call from the President.

Nuclear weapons can be launched from virtually anywhere in the world to anywhere else. Transphasics have a far, far shorter range. So nukes can instantly destroy somewhere else. Transphasic torpedos have to get to a ship and then move for what could be weeks to get to a conflict. In that time they could be easily refitted, or stop off or whatever is required. A few days is nothing in ST.

• Transphasic torpedos are not needed during peacetime.
• Arming ships with transphasic torpedos could cause an arms race or other major aggro with other powers
• Not arming ships with transphasic torpedos has no problems
• If a war began ships can be refitted very quickly, a few days of refitting is no time when travelling across a portion of the Galaxy

[Captain Seafort]

What about tac-nukes then? As I've pointed out, those are a much better comparison with TTs, and clearly show how the Feds could deploy them without making it obvious to the entire quadrant.

[Thorin]

What about tac-nukes then? As I've pointed out, those are a much better comparison with TTs, and clearly show how the Feds could deploy them without making it obvious to the entire quadrant.

Firing time (beginning of war to missile hitting target) on earth is maybe 1 hour.
Firing time (beginning of war to torpedos hitting target) is several weeks due to getting ships together over such a vast expanse as that of space. Why risk them on ships when they don't need to be - simple scans can see the cargo and the like on other ships - they'd see it on the Fed ships. If they started covering things up with exotic hulls and the like, they'd be clearly suspected, and the moment they fire one shot (not even in a war), they'd be found out.

There are risks;
Not arming with transphasics during peacetime, and allowing a possible random (not war) threat to attack you while you don't have the most powerful weapons available. However, the upside is no arms race, no tensions, and less chance of full blown war. It only takes a couple of days to refit, and in the timescale of travelled across space, this is no time.
Likely outcome of not arming: Danger posed by 'rogue' threats, very small delay while ships refitted incase of war, but very low risk of war

Arming with transphasics during peacetime, means other races will possibly team up against you, and they will begin an arms race to try to catch up. Tensions increase vastly and you get a cold war where you are vastly outnumbered (although you, in one on ones, almost certainly are more powerful).
Likely outcome of arming: No danger posed by 'rogue' threats, no very small delay in refits, but major risk of cold war, followed by war.

[Captain Seafort]

Thorin, I've put out numerous examples why TTs, if the Federation has the capacity to build them, will almost certainly be deployed. They can probably use the same casings (and certainly use the same launchers) as normal PTs, or Voyager wouldn't have been able to use them. This vastly reduces the chances of them being spotted. The Federation has always deployed the most advanced weapons available on its ships, regardless of other people's sensibilities, and there's no reason why they would stop now. There's a good chance that even if they weren't deployed the Tal Shiar would find out (as they did with the Prommie), triggering a Romulan development programme and arms race.

There is, quite simply, no logical reason why they would not be deployed. The "don't want to upset the neighbours" line would be trying to put the genie back in the bottle - the local powers will find out about the new kit and you'll have your arms race, probably sooner rather than later, so it's better to get a head start than wait in the vain hope of averting it, and then have to catch up.

[Thorin]

This vastly reduces the chances of them being spotted.

The first time they're fired they would be spotted.

The Federation has always deployed the most advanced weapons available on its ships, regardless of other people's sensibilities, and there's no reason why they would stop now.

The Genesis Device, the trilithium star bomber, phase cloak... All not used.

There's a good chance that even if they weren't deployed the Tal Shiar would find out (as they did with the Prommie), triggering a Romulan development programme and arms race.

The Prommie was flying about already, hardly kept in a secure compound on earth or something.

There is, quite simply, no logical reason why they would not be deployed. The "don't want to upset the neighbours" line would be trying to put the genie back in the bottle - the local powers will find out about the new kit and you'll have your arms race, probably sooner rather than later, so it's better to get a head start than wait in the vain hope of averting it, and then have to catch up.

The reasons they would not be deployed, as I've already said, but will say again for your benefit.

Not arming with transphasics during peacetime, and allowing a possible random (not war) threat to attack you while you don't have the most powerful weapons available. However, the upside is no arms race, no tensions, and less chance of full blown war. It only takes a couple of days to refit, and in the timescale of travelled across space, this is no time.
Likely outcome of not arming: Danger posed by 'rogue' threats, very small delay while ships refitted incase of war, but very low risk of war.

Also, as I said a while back, it's possible the E-E just hadn't been refitted yet. However, the fact remains that Voyager (and almost definitely others), could 'create' as many transphasics as required. Whether they are or aren't used isn't particular relevant, the relevant part is that they could use it if they needed to. But they didn't.

[Teaos]

I totally agree with Thorin on this. As I have said several times in the past if Starfleet were to ever try to greatly increase it's over all power it would cause an arms race which would be bad for everyone.

[Captain Seafort]

The first time they're fired they would be spotted.

Then don't fire them - keep them safely tucked away like the US supercarriers do their tatical nuclear weapons.

The Genesis Device, the trilithium star bomber, phase cloak... All not used.

The first was apparently abandoned an its military potential ignored, the second wasn't a Federation weapon, and the last malfunctioned badly on its trials - it obviously needs some work doing with it.

The Prommie was flying about already, hardly kept in a secure compound on earth or something.

It was also so highly classified that only four people knew how to operate it. And yet the Tal Shiar still found out about it, and were able to intercept and board it with no apparent difficulty.

the fact remains that Voyager (and almost definitely others), could 'create' as many transphasics as required. Whether they are or aren't used isn't particular relevant, the relevant part is that they could use it if they needed to. But they didn't.

This is the gist of it - the assumption that they could spam out TTs like there's no tomorrow. Prove it - prove that the Federation could make as many TTs as they liked. I saw nothing in Endgame to suggest that they could be produced at the drop of a hat, and everything in Nemesis (specifically, their absense) to suggest that they can't be.

You can produce various convoluted reasons why they're not there, or you can simply say "they can't make them". Both are adequate explanations, both fit all available canon, and the latter fits the Razor.

[Thorin]

Then don't fire them - keep them safely tucked away like the US supercarriers do their tatical nuclear weapons.

People know the US has nukes, so they want nukes. People can't want it if they don't know it exists. Keeping them under lock and key and deployed only when needed eliminates this arms race possibility.

The first was apparently abandoned an its military potential ignored, the second wasn't a Federation weapon, and the last malfunctioned badly on its trials - it obviously needs some work doing with it.

The first was abandoned - precisely.
The second was still a weapon that could be used by Starfleet.
The third had a lot of potential yet was also abondened.
SF clearly values peace over possibilty of power - especially as shown by them giving up any cloaking opportunities to avoid conflict with the Romulans.

It was also so highly classified that only four people knew how to operate it. And yet the Tal Shiar still found out about it, and were able to intercept and board it with no apparent difficulty.

They clearly got pretty lucky. You can't make the instant assumption that the enemy would find out about something you're clearly trying to hide from them.

This is the gist of it - the assumption that they could spam out TTs like there's no tomorrow. Prove it - prove that the Federation could make as many TTs as they liked. I saw nothing in Endgame to suggest that they could be produced at the drop of a hat, and everything in Nemesis (specifically, their absense) to suggest that they can't be.

They weren't present on one ship. The fact that Voyager creates these transphasics tells me they can create more, as is the same of the armour. Voyager fully creates the armour (Janeway didn't bring warheads or similar for that), there's no reason to assume they didn't modify the torpedos likewise.

You can produce various convoluted reasons why they're not there, or you can simply say "they can't make them". Both are adequate explanations, both fit all available canon, and the latter fits the Razor.

Actually, the first fits the Razor. The fact we know they have Voyager, and the fact we know Voyager has the ability to make armour and transphasic torpedos is the simplest explanation. Not some very convoluted reason that only Voyager can make them, Voyager would get stolen, the enemies would find out about it eventually etc etc.

[Captain Seafort]

People know the US has nukes, so they want nukes. People can't want it if they don't know it exists. Keeping them under lock and key and deployed only when needed eliminates this arms race possibility.

If you think that Starfleet can keep Voyager's equipment quiet then you're livng in cloud-cukoo land. There were at least acouple of dozen ships either present or moving into position when she emerged from the conduit, so people on them would have seen both the armour and the way she blew up a sphere without much difficulty. That's aside from anyone who saw the same thing from Earth, and who came out to watch Voyager enter Earth orbit.

The first was abandoned - precisely.
The second was still a weapon that could be used by Starfleet.
The third had a lot of potential yet was also abondened.
SF clearly values peace over possibilty of power - especially as shown by them giving up any cloaking opportunities to avoid conflict with the Romulans.

The first was abandoned because it didn't work as advertised and Starfleet apparently ignored its military potential. There's no eveidence whatsoever that Starfleet knew how the second worked, and the latter was given up because the Romulans defeated the Federation in the Tomed Incident - there's no other explanation for how the Feds signed an assymetrical arms control treaty.

They clearly got pretty lucky. You can't make the instant assumption that the enemy would find out about something you're clearly trying to hide from them.

The Romulans clearly have the ability to find out about, locate, and steal without any serious damage, a top-secret Federation ship. Whether they had a bit of luck is irrelevent - they have shown the capability, and to rely on them not doing so again would be unbelievaly stupid - more so than the Federation is. Indeed, finding out about Voyager's tech would be easier, since its return would be surrounded by publicity, while very few people knew the Prommie existed.

They weren't present on one ship. The fact that Voyager creates these transphasics tells me they can create more, as is the same of the armour. Voyager fully creates the armour (Janeway didn't bring warheads or similar for that), there's no reason to assume they didn't modify the torpedos likewise.

Manufacturing the armour and manufacturing the torpedoes have nothing to do with each other - they're completely different technologies. The armour, and the fact that its apparently so easy to produce, is another argument in favour of the Feds not having it - if were that easy why haven't they equipped their ships with it? It would also make it a lot easier to hide the existence of the TTs - everyone can see that Voyager's got some kind of advanced tech, but if you deploy the armour on your ships, they might be fooled into thinking that's all she brought back.

Actually, the first fits the Razor. The fact we know they have Voyager, and the fact we know Voyager has the ability to make armour and transphasic torpedos is the simplest explanation. Not some very convoluted reason that only Voyager can make them, Voyager would get stolen, the enemies would find out about it eventually etc etc.

Option a) they can't reproduce and/or widely fit the technology.
Option b) they can fit the technology, but they don't want to in case they upset people, despite the fact that they've never done so before.

Option a) is simpler, therefore the Razor favours that option.

[Teaos]

b) they can fit the technology, but they don't want to in case they upset people, despite the fact that they've never done so before.

Name another situation that they hel back using advanced tech for fear of an arms race?

[Captain Seafort]

Name another situation that they hel back using advanced tech for fear of an arms race?

There isn't one - that's exactly my point.

[Thorin]

If you think that Starfleet can keep Voyager's equipment quiet then you're livng in cloud-cukoo land. There were at least acouple of dozen ships either present or moving into position when she emerged from the conduit, so people on them would have seen both the armour and the way she blew up a sphere without much difficulty. That's aside from anyone who saw the same thing from Earth, and who came out to watch Voyager enter Earth orbit.

That's knowing that Voyager has something, not the workings of what it is, or how powerful it is. Blowing up a sphere isn't that hard from the inside - indeed, 4 quantum torpedos on an unshielded sphere is enough to blow it up. I doubt there's a shield on the inside, so again it'd be like firing on an unshielded sphere. The fact is people may know she has something, but if her enemies don't know what they can't create it or attempt to get up to those standards.

The first was abandoned because it didn't work as advertised and Starfleet apparently ignored its military potential. There's no eveidence whatsoever that Starfleet knew how the second worked, and the latter was given up because the Romulans defeated the Federation in the Tomed Incident - there's no other explanation for how the Feds signed an assymetrical arms control treaty.

Again the genesis device - precisely. The first one resurfaced a planet, the second one blew up and created its own nebula! If you don't realise its military potential its because you don't want to. The Federation still signed a treaty making themselves weaker for peace. The fact is, the Federation could have broken this treaty and got cloaks (and phase cloaks), but didn't, because they valued peace more.

The Romulans clearly have the ability to find out about, locate, and steal without any serious damage, a top-secret Federation ship. Whether they had a bit of luck is irrelevent - they have shown the capability, and to rely on them not doing so again would be unbelievaly stupid - more so than the Federation is. Indeed, finding out about Voyager's tech would be easier, since its return would be surrounded by publicity, while very few people knew the Prommie existed.

They have shown they can take one ship, not that they can do it again. You can't make the presumption that someone would find out about your secrets, and as such not make any secrets!

Manufacturing the armour and manufacturing the torpedoes have nothing to do with each other - they're completely different technologies. The armour, and the fact that its apparently so easy to produce, is another argument in favour of the Feds not having it - if were that easy why haven't they equipped their ships with it? It would also make it a lot easier to hide the existence of the TTs - everyone can see that Voyager's got some kind of advanced tech, but if you deploy the armour on your ships, they might be fooled into thinking that's all she brought back.

They are different technologies, I agree. But the fact that they didn't need any future replicators (or similar) to create the armour, which is of the same 'advancement' as the torpedos suggests the torpedos could be modified likewise. The armour is, again, just a very powerful device that isn't required. If people say the Federation is deploying invincible armour (for AQ powers), it looks as if they're gearing up for war. Even if people knew they had some armour capability (but it wasn't deployed), it doesn't look like they're about to go an a mass-exterminating rampage.

Option a) they can't reproduce and/or widely fit the technology.
Option b) they can fit the technology, but they don't want to in case they upset people, despite the fact that they've never done so before.

Option a) they have been shown to have no problem reproducing the technology, and yet as soon as they get back they have a problem
Option b) they can reproduce the technology, but have chosen not to because of the circumstances

Option b definitely fits.

[mlsnoopy]

Tomed Incident didn't that treaty also forbad the development of supspace weapons, what genesis also is.