That is a PAID break there buddy!Mikey wrote:Yeah, it's tough to finish a starship when you are required to take a half-hour break every fifteen minutes.
Starfleet size
If someone wants to make this a new thread, that's cool. I just figured I would hyjack this one...
People have debated Starfleet's roll as far as military or science. I went to DITL's main page, opened the fleet area and was a little surprised at what I found.
(NON-shuttle)
The #1 quantity built ship is the Oberth Class, with nearly 3 times the number of the #2 ship. The Oberth appears to be basially purely a science/exploration vessel. 2,186 of these were made.
The #3 quantity is the Saber Class, a scout/frigate. Again, a exploration craft more than anything else. 724 of these were made.
On the other side of the coin, the #2 quantity built was the Miranda refit, with 820 made. This was basically a patrol/gunboat. That would make one think it was a trend towards a military ideal. However, it was originally an exploration ship rebuilt into a gunboat once it started to become obsolete. Even after it became more of a weapons platform, it was still considered more a defensive craft rather than an attack ship.
In my opinion, this just helps show that the Federation has military strength on it's mind ONLY as an afterthought. The only real military move are made in answer to problems brought forth by peaceful expansion and exploration. The Mirandas were not recreated as gunboats until their lack of speed hampered their ability to transverse Federation's expanding area AND there was a clear threat from the Klingons and Romulans.
Increases in firepower on Federation ships increased over the years, but only in responce to the increases in Klingon power and the threat of Romulan activity. But even with these increases, ships were still primarily designed for exploration and deplomacy. That did not change unti lthe Borg came knocking. Even then the move to a true military craft was slow and backburner.
It was possible that with the relative close timing of the Borg attacks on Earth and the Dominion invasion the Federation will finally put full resources into developing a military wing. However, I honestly doubted it. BUT... with the return of Voyager and the knowledge that the Borg are actually a bigger threat than originally thought, I do feel that they Federation will actually create a solid military fleet. These ships will have some diplomatic capibilities, but they will be nothing like the Galaxy or Soverign. Granted, those ships will be made (obviously), but they will not be the top resource drain. I feel that more ships of the Akira/Prometheus style will be made. (Less so of the Defiant style as it has no real multitask ability at all).
People have debated Starfleet's roll as far as military or science. I went to DITL's main page, opened the fleet area and was a little surprised at what I found.
(NON-shuttle)
The #1 quantity built ship is the Oberth Class, with nearly 3 times the number of the #2 ship. The Oberth appears to be basially purely a science/exploration vessel. 2,186 of these were made.
The #3 quantity is the Saber Class, a scout/frigate. Again, a exploration craft more than anything else. 724 of these were made.
On the other side of the coin, the #2 quantity built was the Miranda refit, with 820 made. This was basically a patrol/gunboat. That would make one think it was a trend towards a military ideal. However, it was originally an exploration ship rebuilt into a gunboat once it started to become obsolete. Even after it became more of a weapons platform, it was still considered more a defensive craft rather than an attack ship.
In my opinion, this just helps show that the Federation has military strength on it's mind ONLY as an afterthought. The only real military move are made in answer to problems brought forth by peaceful expansion and exploration. The Mirandas were not recreated as gunboats until their lack of speed hampered their ability to transverse Federation's expanding area AND there was a clear threat from the Klingons and Romulans.
Increases in firepower on Federation ships increased over the years, but only in responce to the increases in Klingon power and the threat of Romulan activity. But even with these increases, ships were still primarily designed for exploration and deplomacy. That did not change unti lthe Borg came knocking. Even then the move to a true military craft was slow and backburner.
It was possible that with the relative close timing of the Borg attacks on Earth and the Dominion invasion the Federation will finally put full resources into developing a military wing. However, I honestly doubted it. BUT... with the return of Voyager and the knowledge that the Borg are actually a bigger threat than originally thought, I do feel that they Federation will actually create a solid military fleet. These ships will have some diplomatic capibilities, but they will be nothing like the Galaxy or Soverign. Granted, those ships will be made (obviously), but they will not be the top resource drain. I feel that more ships of the Akira/Prometheus style will be made. (Less so of the Defiant style as it has no real multitask ability at all).
Ugh... do not thump the Book of G'Quan...
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Mikey
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We've debated this in various and sundry forms, Jim, mostly on the topic of how Starfleet SHOULD operate/orient itself rather than what HAS actually been the case. I will offer this caveat; DITL's figures show excellent, well-reasoned and backed conjecture, but many of the class numbers are just that.
Unfortunately, Starfleet's leaning toward multipurpose (at best) ships has been what's led to the constant misuse of ship types that we have discussed.
Unfortunately, Starfleet's leaning toward multipurpose (at best) ships has been what's led to the constant misuse of ship types that we have discussed.
I can't stand nothing dull
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I got the high gloss luster
I'll massacre your ass as fast
as Bull offed Custer
I do admire much of Graham's (and Ian's) work on the site, specifically the ship details, and there is a lot of work that goes into them. The actual numbers of each ships, though, aren't just a little conjecture - they're completely conjecture, and quite basically, a complete guess.
However, Jim, if you'd like to debate the militaristic and exploration/scientific nature of Starfleet, there is a rather large thread in the TNG section that you can post on
However, Jim, if you'd like to debate the militaristic and exploration/scientific nature of Starfleet, there is a rather large thread in the TNG section that you can post on
80085
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Sionnach Glic
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True, but usualy those estimates are backed up by dialogue and direct observation.
"You've all been selected for this mission because you each have a special skill. Professor Hawking, John Leslie, Phil Neville, the Wu-Tang Clan, Usher, the Sugar Puffs Monster and Daniel Day-Lewis! Welcome to Operation MindFuck!"
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Teaos
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We high jacked the Galaxy and Sov thread and turned them into the science/miltary debate.
What does defeat mean to you?
Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
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Deepcrush
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Starfleets role as a combat force is not a new design, in fact it was during peacetime of the early half of the 24th that saw starfleet becoming more peace driven. The connies, mirandas and excelsiors were fair warships of their time. For proof just look at the battles they have been in and the damage that they took, TWOK and TUC. Their weapons were under constant upgrade by the looks of the show (TOS) and the movies which we began to see more and more ships. Starfleet lost its want for war after the klingons lost their ability to match the UFP in ST-VI. I think you are right about them needing to bring up and maintain a military force that could enforce the UFP's will. The klingons are out of the picture for the next 10 to 20 years and only the Romulans are left standing. Though by the looks of that new warbird design they still need work.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
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Captain Seafort
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TOS Starfleet is certainly a better military than TNG Starfleet, but using the pounding taken by the ships has nothing to do with it. Look at the pounding the E-D - the worst designed ship to bear the name Enterprise, stood up to in BoBW. The fact that the ships use a clear military hierarchy, have no civilians and have ergonomically designed hand weapons are much better indicators.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
Yes, this is kind of the thing. After the Khitomer accords and particularly after the battle of Narendra, the Klingons were out of the picture for a war with the Federation. Frankly, I think they were the only Alpha-quadrant power that would have been able to deal with a stand-up-knock-down war with the Federation without extensive alliances.
Without the threat of the Klingons, Starfleet rapidly regeared for what optimistic politicians no doubt called a new golden era of peace, exploration, and scientific discovery.
Whatever else you say about the E-D, it was probably the best explorer in the whole line. The crew can have their family along, and she's built for range, making long missions much easier from a logistics and morale perspective. Exploration in the E-nil meant five years away from your family, so it mostly attracted the young and the single (making the E-nil the best starship to get a date on). On the E-D, you can have your family along, so Starfleet has much more flexibility about the crew makeup of the ship.
Then you have the Cardassian war. And all those politicians yammering about a new era of peace suddenly look pretty dumb. Which is probably why the treaty was so quick to give the Cardassians whatever they wanted to go away--the Maquis were sold so that politicians could save face.
And THEN, of course, is the Dominion war, which threw the whole thing out the airlock. Thanks to that, you have more military designs suddenly rising to the top--Defiant, Sovereign, and Prometheus.
Bottom line: politicians are dumb, and control the agenda.
Without the threat of the Klingons, Starfleet rapidly regeared for what optimistic politicians no doubt called a new golden era of peace, exploration, and scientific discovery.
Whatever else you say about the E-D, it was probably the best explorer in the whole line. The crew can have their family along, and she's built for range, making long missions much easier from a logistics and morale perspective. Exploration in the E-nil meant five years away from your family, so it mostly attracted the young and the single (making the E-nil the best starship to get a date on). On the E-D, you can have your family along, so Starfleet has much more flexibility about the crew makeup of the ship.
Then you have the Cardassian war. And all those politicians yammering about a new era of peace suddenly look pretty dumb. Which is probably why the treaty was so quick to give the Cardassians whatever they wanted to go away--the Maquis were sold so that politicians could save face.
And THEN, of course, is the Dominion war, which threw the whole thing out the airlock. Thanks to that, you have more military designs suddenly rising to the top--Defiant, Sovereign, and Prometheus.
Bottom line: politicians are dumb, and control the agenda.
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Teaos
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If you wanna get technical politicial bow to public pressure and will so really people are dumb.
What does defeat mean to you?
Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.
Nothing it will never come. Death before defeat. I don’t bend or break. I end, if I meet a foe capable of it. Victory is in forcing the opponent to back down. I do not. There is no defeat.