VOY: The Gift

[Sonic Glitch]

Quick random question: Are we discussing whether or not Kim could give orders to people who outranked him in the department (ie, if there was a Lt in the ops department) or whether he had the authority to issue orders at all?

We're discussing whether or not Kim could issue orders to people who outranked him at all - this wouldn't arise with Kim's own department - if there was a Lieutenant within Ops then he or she would be Ops Officer, not Kim.

Ah Ok then.

And I'm saying while there is a hierarchy of rank (w/ ensign at the bottom) at least in Starfleet there is also a hierarchy of position with Department Head > Members of the Department

I think you've got the situation slightly confused. The head of the department holds that position by being the highest-ranking individual within the department.

I thought part of the issue people are having was that Kim shouldn't have been department head as he was only an ensign?

Correct. And how many times have we seen ships' COs overruled by higher-ranking officers, despite not being in their direct chain of command? Decker for example.

Kirk was Chief of Operations, at the top of almost everyone's chain of command it would seem.

I'm talking about Matt Decker commandeering the Enterprise, not Will being shunted down to XO.

Ah ok, nevermind then.

What?

I'd have thought the statement would be obvious - you stated that an individual's rank is irrelevant to their post, and claimed that if that were not the case O'Brien wouldn't have been Chief of Operations for DS9. I'm pointing out that the reason O'Brien held that position was because he outranked everyone else in that department.

Oh, now that I read it again it makes sense. I read it too quickly before but, did he outrank all of them? I thought there were at least a couple of Ensigns in the Ops department on DS9 or in engineering? I could be wrong.

[Captain Seafort]

I thought part of the issue people are having was that Kim shouldn't have been department head as he was only an ensign?

He shouldn't have been, but it's an issue of experience and seniority relative to the rest of the command staff, not of there being higher-ranking officers in the same department.

Oh, now that I read it again it makes sense. I read it too quickly before but, did he outrank all of them? I thought there were at least a couple of Ensigns in the Ops department on DS9 or in engineering? I could be wrong.

There couldn't have been, precisely because O'Brien was in charge.

[Mikey]

Indeed, I find the idea that there were a sum total of zero officers in engineering on either DS9 or on the Defiant to stretch credibility. Even so, the fact that the head of a department on DS9 was an enlisted man lends credence to the idea that an ensign could've been head of a department on VOY - a ship with a much smaller crew in general, and badly depleted in this specific case.

In addition, I tend to believe that O'Brien could have given an order to an officer if it related to an engineering matter.

[Captain Seafort]

In addition, I tend to believe that O'Brien could have given an order to an officer if it related to an engineering matter.

No he couldn't have - he could have made a request, that said officer would have been well advised to follow, but he couldn't issue an order any more than an RSM can order a 2nd Lieutenant around.

[Mikey]

There couldn't have been, precisely because O'Brien was in charge.

This is completely circular. In addition, you're basing this and your most recent comment on the notion that Starfleet rank protocols exactly mirror modern, RL Western armed service ones. I have absolutely no reason to take that as a given.

[Captain Seafort]

This is completely circular.

How, exactly? We know that O'Brien is the Defiant's and DS9's Chief Engineer and we know that Starfleet's rank structure is hierarchical. Ergo, O'Brien must be the senior member of the engineering staff. If I was trying to claim that there were no Ensigns or higher-ranked personnel in the staff and that O'Brien was Chief Engineer you'd have a point, but I'm not.

In addition, you're basing this and your most recent comment on the notion that Starfleet rank protocols exactly mirror modern, RL Western armed service ones. I have absolutely no reason to take that as a given.

Other than the facts that the rank structure is identical to that of the US Navy, and that officers defer to those more senior than them regardless of the chain of command in the same way. I'd like to hear a reason why a hierarchical ranks structure is in place if it isn't used to determine who defers to whom.

[Mark]

If he's dept. head, he can issue orders relating to the management of his department to almost anyone.

Why? If he's outranked then he can either a) ask nicely and hope the senior officer isn't in a contrary mood or b) pass on the orders of someone who outranks whoever he's talking to. He can't order people around who outrank him simply by virtue of his post.

Again, that stands to my point. You put a raw ensign on his first deep space mission and assign him as the Chief Ops Officer. Makes no sense. But, as Janeway's COO, Harry acts with HER authority. If he says to the astrology department that astrometrics has priority on the aft sensor array, and Commander Dipstick doesn't like it and refuses the order, she would step on his neck rather firmly.

Position trumps rank when in the scope of ones job.

[Mikey]

How, exactly?

How? You claimed that there are no officers in the department because O'Brien was in charge... because there were no officers.

If I was trying to claim that there were no Ensigns or higher-ranked personnel in the staff and that O'Brien was Chief Engineer you'd have a point, but I'm not.

You're claiming that there were no officers, and we know that O'Brien was department head. I fail to see the difference.

the rank structure is identical to that of the US Navy

The rank structure certainly bears a resemblance in its naming convention (which may be, BTW, simply due to translation from "UFP standard" to TV English,) and in general there is deference to those of higher rank; however, we've seen an ensign as dept. head and an enlisted man as same. If the USN doesn't allow for such things, I'd say that's evidence that there are differences rather than an implausible claim.

I'd like to hear a reason why a hierarchical ranks structure is in place if it isn't used to determine who defers to whom.

Who knows? Who cares? As I mentioned above, we have an ensign in charge of ops, we have an enlisted man in charge of engineering - canon. It's a lot more logical to say that these things are allowed by SF's structure than to say that the entire engineering staff of a Fed-administered station has not one officer... especially considering the previously-shown ubiquity of officers in SF, and the commensurate paucity of enlisted men.

[Tyyr]

I agree with Seafort here. What's the point of a hierarchical command structure if you don't follow it? What's the point in having one if low ranking people regularly give orders to higher ranking people?

[Sonic Glitch]

I agree with Seafort here. What's the point of a hierarchical command structure if you don't follow it? What's the point in having one if low ranking people regularly give orders to higher ranking people?

But it his hierarchical... by position.

[Mark]

It doens't make sense, but thats how it is in TNG.

[Mikey]

I'm not arguing for the rationality of it - but what we saw is what we saw.

[Captain Seafort]

Again, that stands to my point. You put a raw ensign on his first deep space mission and assign him as the Chief Ops Officer. Makes no sense. But, as Janeway's COO, Harry acts with HER authority. If he says to the astrology department that astrometrics has priority on the aft sensor array, and Commander Dipstick doesn't like it and refuses the order, she would step on his neck rather firmly.

If he was specifically passing on Janeway's orders, that would be true. If he was doing it off his own bat, then he'd still be outranked by Commander Dipstick. That's why the ops officer needs to be part of the senior staff (in terms of rank) - they need the clout to be able to enforce their decisions. Data was in the right place, as 3iC, and the ops officer should really always hold that post.

[Captain Seafort]

How? You claimed that there are no officers in the department because O'Brien was in charge... because there were no officers.

I'm saying that O'Brien was in charge because we were told so in the show. Therefore there weren't any officers

You're claiming that there were no officers, and we know that O'Brien was department head. I fail to see the difference.

The one follows from the other - if there had been officers O'Brien wouldn't have been in charge.

The rank structure certainly bears a resemblance in its naming convention (which may be, BTW, simply due to translation from "UFP standard" to TV English,) and in general there is deference to those of higher rank; however, we've seen an ensign as dept. head and an enlisted man as same. If the USN doesn't allow for such things, I'd say that's evidence that there are differences rather than an implausible claim.

It's a matter of scale. If there are hundreds or thousands of people in a department you'd need a Commander or Captain. If there are half a dozen you only need a junior officer or a senior NCO.

It's a lot more logical to say that these things are allowed by SF's structure than to say that the entire engineering staff of a Fed-administered station has not one officer... especially considering the previously-shown ubiquity of officers in SF, and the commensurate paucity of enlisted men.

A station that's out in the arse-end of nowhere, and owned by the Bajorans, not the Federation. Indeed, most of O'Brien's staff were Bajoran, not Starfleet. The job simply wasn't big enough to warrant a commissioned officer.

[Mark]

Again, that stands to my point. You put a raw ensign on his first deep space mission and assign him as the Chief Ops Officer. Makes no sense. But, as Janeway's COO, Harry acts with HER authority. If he says to the astrology department that astrometrics has priority on the aft sensor array, and Commander Dipstick doesn't like it and refuses the order, she would step on his neck rather firmly.

If he was specifically passing on Janeway's orders, that would be true. If he was doing it off his own bat, then he'd still be outranked by Commander Dipstick. That's why the ops officer needs to be part of the senior staff (in terms of rank) - they need the clout to be able to enforce their decisions. Data was in the right place, as 3iC, and the ops officer should really always hold that post.

Speaking from firsthand military experience, I can tell you that position INDEED trumps rank. Example:

Captain Smith gets into a drunken brawl. The MPs show up to arrest him. He orders the MPs to mind their own business. Do they? No. They arrest him.

In my personal case, as a PFC (E-3) I was given CQ (Charge of Quarters) duty, for the single enlisted barracks. Part of that was coordinating the parking lot as well as we had tandum stalls. Now, Private Fisher wanted to get out, but SSgt Ayers was blocking him in. As the CQ on duty, I TECHNICALLY gave him an order to come move his truck. What would have happened to him if he refused? He'd have been in the COs office, in deep shit, explaining why he refused to follow the CQs instuctions.