How would you deal with Kirk's cheating?

[I Am Spartacus]

Except for several issues. 1) It's not a final, just another simulation. 2) It was done in a blatantly obvious way. This wasn't sneakily done for a grade, it was blatantly done as a form of protest. He messed with the program in full view of the people who wrote it with a big s**t eating grin on his face while munching on an apple. 3) This wasn't a graded run of the test, this was his third run through it. 4) He did find a way to beat a no-win scenario.

1) It's still an exam, and obviously a rather important one. 2) So what? He still cheated. His motivations for cheating do not matter one bit. His attitude, however, does matter, and the fact that he didn't appear to have any moral or ethical reservations about cheating and did not even admit that he did anything wrong when held to account for his actions obviously proves that he does not have the integrity necessary to be a Starfleet officer (further proof came over the rest of the movie). 3) All runs are graded. It's just that if he gets a lower mark than a previous run, his mark would not be recorded. 4) Cheating doesn't count as beating it. Haven't you ever played video games?

[Tyyr]

1) It's still an exam, and obviously a rather important one.

1) I don't recall it ever being stated as an exam. If I recall it's always been stated as an exercise or simulation meant to teach, not test.

2) So what? He still cheated. His motivations for cheating do not matter one bit. His attitude, however, does matter, and the fact that he didn't appear to have any moral or ethical reservations about cheating and did not even admit that he did anything wrong when held to account for his actions

2) If you're going to get pissy about his attitude then you should be harping on him being so stupid as to think he could do that and not get caught. He expected to get caught and acted like it. The reason he didn't hang his head and throw himself on the mercy of the board was that in his mind it was a flawed lesson and that's why he did it all.

3) All runs are graded. It's just that if he gets a lower mark than a previous run, his mark would not be recorded.

And you know this how? Besides, the point of the exercise is to show cadets that there are times when there will be a no win situation. After the first run its loses its ability to teach or even be meaningful.

4) Cheating doesn't count as beating it.

Depends on your point of view. From the point of view that at the end of the "unbeatable" Kobiyashi Maru scenario Kirk's ship was still intact and operational he did beat it.

[I Am Spartacus]

Yeah well lucky for me I have the film right here on my laptop and I can check it straight away. As Kirk and McCoy are walking outside, Kirk says "I'm taking the test again," indicating it is an exam and that the results are graded, otherwise he wouldn't refer to it as a test. A few seconds later, he says "doesn't it bother you that no one's ever passed the test," to which McCoy responds with "no one passes the test." That's three times in less than ten seconds it's labelled a test. And after Kirk's done cheating, one of the instructors turns to Spock and says "how the hell did that kid beat your test?" Then, several times during the hearing scene, it is labelled a test by Spock and Kirk. The head of the panel conducting the hearing even says Spock has "...programmed the Kobiyashi Maru exam..."

Still think it's not meant to test?

And yes, I know Kirk thought it was a flawed lesson. But you know what? That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at any school at any level, especially not one of the most elite military/naval academies in the world, what you think of the lesson. I'm sure every student in his or her life has questioned the relevance of what he or she is being taught. Lord knows I resent having to take math and science courses when I'm an English major. But that doesn't mean I should get away with cheating on my math, biology, or geography exams.

[Lighthawk]

Yeah well lucky for me I have the film right here on my laptop and I can check it straight away. As Kirk and McCoy are walking outside, Kirk says "I'm taking the test again," indicating it is an exam and that the results are graded, otherwise he wouldn't refer to it as a test. A few seconds later, he says "doesn't it bother you that no one's ever passed the test," to which McCoy responds with "no one passes the test." That's three times in less than ten seconds it's labelled a test. And after Kirk's done cheating, one of the instructors turns to Spock and says "how the hell did that kid beat your test?" Then, several times during the hearing scene, it is labelled a test by Spock and Kirk. The head of the panel conducting the hearing even says Spock has "...programmed the Kobiyashi Maru exam..."

Still think it's not meant to test?

And yes, I know Kirk thought it was a flawed lesson. But you know what? That doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at any school at any level, especially not one of the most elite military/naval academies in the world, what you think of the lesson. I'm sure every student in his or her life has questioned the relevance of what he or she is being taught. Lord knows I resent having to take math and science courses when I'm an English major. But that doesn't mean I should get away with cheating on my math, biology, or geography exams.

Such a nice drone you are. " Don't question the establishment! You're opinion is irrelevent!"

As for the choice of everyone using the term "test", of course they're still going to call it "the test" or "the exam". You honestly expect people to be so consceous of their word choices that they'd pick a seperate word to differeniate between a graded and ungraded exam? I know I'd still call it " the test." I wouldn't be bothered to say " I going to try the ungraded simulation again."

And with a lot of colleges, once you've been graded for something, that's it, that's your grade. I ran into that recently, I just went back to college after a 5 year break, and wanted to retake a math class I hadn't done so hot in. Got told it wouldn't matter, my grade was what it was and retaking the class wouldn't change it. Whether or not this is the case though, I doubt Kirk gives a damn. I doubt he cares one shit about his grade, to him it was the challenge. He HAD to beat that damn program, he would not be able to let it go otherwise.

Remember, intentions do count. That's why there's degrees to crimes, first degree murder, manslaughter, criminal negegence. It's not just what you do, it's why you did that counts. I don't think Kirk should just get a pass, but there's no way he's going to get a heavy punishment.
1) He did it in such a way as to guareentee he'd get caught. He wasn't trying to hide it, he was trying to beat the damn thing and possibly make a statement at the same time
2) Regardless of his attitude towards the test, he did beat it, using a good deal of cunning. His ability to think outside the box was probably marked down as a good thing, even if they did mark him down for not following the rules

Again, I'm noting saying he should be let off the hook, but really now, he didn't do anything with serious, lasting reprocussions. He make a mockery of a test that is highly debatable in it's usefulness to learning anything. Honestly, I think the test is more a personality exam than a lesson. " How does this person react?" rather than " some situations are just un-winable." I mean really, how do you grade something that no one should be able to win? That'd be like getting graded on a math problem that can't be solved.

[I Am Spartacus]

The obvious purpose is to gauge the student's reaction to an unwinnable scenario, and as such Kirk and the rest of the crew were probably being graded on how well they handle themselves in said scenario. You've never been graded for effort? Besides, cheating is not cunning. If I'm having trouble beating a video game, is it cunning of me to go on the internet, look up a cheat code, and enter said cheat code? That's basically what Kirk did.

And the point is, he did do something completely unethical, probably illegal (I doubt accessing someone else's computers without their permission is legal in the future), and demonstrated a complete lack of maturity that is expected from those training to serve in one of the most elite services in the known universe. Cheating on a high school test is one thing, but again, students at the best academy on the planet are held to a higher standard. That's why you give him the boot. There are thousands of applicants who were turned down ahead of him that are far more mature than he is.

But again, this is Hollywood, and the rules don't apply to leading actors like him, even in horrible movies like this one. Perhaps especially in horrible movies like this one.

[stitch626]

If I'm having trouble beating a video game, is it cunning of me to go on the internet, look up a cheat code, and enter said cheat code? That's basically what Kirk did.

No what Kirk did was unable to beat a game so he edited its source code. Completely different.

[Tyyr]

Spartacus, would you like to bother explaining how it mattered when Kirk was on his THIRD run through the test? How many times have you taken a test and gotten to retake it, and retake it again and it kept on counting?

Yes, it was a test or at least referred to as one. That was the least of the issues.

[I Am Spartacus]

Well, the first possibility is that the scriptwriters were drunk in the twenty minutes it took them to knock out this film.

Either that or they're just retarded.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards retarded.

[Tyyr]

Ok, so you are ticked about the bad writing that made Kirk unfit for command but he passed anyways.

But your argument rests upon the assumption the writing was bad enough for the subsequent tests to have counted as opposed to the more logical conclusion that Kirk's ego was getting the best of him and the instructors were just humoring him to "beat" him and win their little prick waving contest.

[I Am Spartacus]

Why wouldn't they have counted? In most colleges if you fail a course you can take it again. Hell, I didn't even fail one of my English courses in my first year, but I took it again anyways because I thought I could've done better. I did, and the mark from the first time through no longer counts against my cumulative GPA, as it's been replaced in that regard by the second one (the first is still on the transcript though).

That Kirk's ego got the better of him is not the most logical conclusion; that the script, like the rest of the movie, sucked, is. The whole scene was simply shoehorned into the film with no purpose other than to fulfill a part of Trek fandom, which is nonsensical anyways since the film is supposed to be a reboot.

And you've obviously never been to college. Professors have better things to do with their time than humor someone who just wants to go through the motions again; this is not what happened.

[stitch626]

There is a such thing as a test that doesn't get graded.

When I took my 5-hour course, there was a test at the end. It was called a test. At the end, I curiously asked the instructor what I got. He said the tests weren't graded, it only was important that we showed up.

[I Am Spartacus]

You didn't cheat on it, did you?

[stitch626]

No. No way to. It was open... well wall. Everything we needed to know was on the walls.

[Tyyr]

Why wouldn't they have counted? In most colleges if you fail a course you can take it again. Hell, I didn't even fail one of my English courses in my first year, but I took it again anyways because I thought I could've done better. I did, and the mark from the first time through no longer counts against my cumulative GPA, as it's been replaced in that regard by the second one (the first is still on the transcript though).

Right. Ok, now lets revisit the question. In one of those classes has an instructor allowed you to repeatedly allowed you to take a test over and over?

That Kirk's ego got the better of him is not the most logical conclusion; that the script, like the rest of the movie, sucked, is. The whole scene was simply shoehorned into the film with no purpose other than to fulfill a part of Trek fandom, which is nonsensical anyways since the film is supposed to be a reboot.

No, it is the perfectly logical conclusion. It's far more logical than assuming in Starfleet academy you can simply keep taking tests over and over and over again.

And you've obviously never been to college.

Aren't you just adorable! This is a big boy discussion though so you'd do well to remember that ad hominem attacks don't make you right.

Professors have better things to do with their time than humor someone who just wants to go through the motions again; this is not what happened.

Yes, Starfleet just lets cadets keep taking tests over and over as long as they please. Professors are people too, some have egos, some a pricks. I've had the misfortune to have professors that were pricks with huge egos.

[I Am Spartacus]

Actually I reported someone else's personal attacks and the moderator explicitly told me they are not forbidden according to the forum's rules. Not that what I engaged in was a personal attack; it was a simple statement of fact. Deal with it, like a big boy would.

I must insist that yes, the conclusion I offered is far more logical. The scriptwriters themselves are idiots who should not have been allowed within ten miles of a high school drama classroom, let alone a major science fiction franchise. Not only would such an explanation resolve the issues in this one scene, it would resolve every other issue in the entire film!

It is perfectly reasonable to suggest that he took the test again in an effort to get a better mark, and cheated in order to do so. He wasn't trying to make a point, he wasn't trying to prove that the test was stupid, he had no noble goals (otherwise why would he have even bothered to defend himself at the hearing?). Besides, the scriptwriters don't tell us how recently Kirk took the test last; he's in his fourth year, and it could be a third-year test that he's taken months ago and scheduled ahead of time. Hell, it could even be a first-year test, since the idea of a no-win scenario seems to be the sort of basic thing you need to drum into cadets before they get too far.

And even if he did have some sort of insane motivation when cheating, you punish him for it like you would in any real school. You fail him for that course, or expel him if the board feels like it. Like I said, at a real college today, they don't care why you cheated when they catch you. And they don't really care what you say when they call you in to inform you what decision they've reached on how to punish you. They only care that you have cheated. I find it very difficult to believe that the most elite academy in the world would be more lenient with academic discipline.