War of the Week: I

[Mikey]

And because the Feds aren't born and bred for conquest, as the Klingons are. Remember that the Klingons WERE smart enough to leave 67% of their fleet at home, as well as develop huge, manned (and "shipped") SDS's.

[Teaos]

That 67% stat shouldn't be taken at face value. Their Negh'Vars would be at the forefront of their assult and would thus be taken out by the EDW in the intial counter attack especially since they would be targeted. That alone severly reduces their ability to take on space stations and planets and it is also probably took out their fleet admirals.

Their main and best part of their fleet would be put into that first wave which is destroyed.

[Mikey]

Which wouldn't be destroyed entirely. And the point is, that the core worlds an Q'o'os would NOT be left unprotected enough to fall to a raiding party of the C-B Alliance.

[Deepcrush]

The negh'vars maybe lost but those battlestations which make the negh's look like flypaper are still around. That and that thought the C/B forces would even make a dent is just plain silly. You base everything off of them winning every battle with every plan working perfectly. And that joke of them some how just walking into klingon space and bypassing the defense forces is just mad. You're whole story relies on the klingons just sitting and letting themselves be destroyed which I don't see happening. If 2/3 of a fleet is at home is still one hell of a fleet to have to deal with. How can you discount such a force as meaning less? If the full might of the klingon fleet went after the C/B forces they would be fighting a cloaked enemy who outnumbers them who also has better ships to fight with. More shipyards and a larger population. It wouldn't even be a close fight. The klingons refited 1500 ships in just 2 days after the EDW was used for the first time. That force alone could hold off a breen invasion.

[Captain Seafort]

Some Negh'vars would certainly be lost to the Breen weapon, but I doubt they'd all be concentrated into a single fleet, and so some would survive. Deep - the Breen also have cloaks (per "Hero Worship"), and so would probably be able to bypass most Klingon defences. Not that that would do them any good, since it's inconcieveable that they'd be able to do more damage than they did against Earth, which failed to inflict serious damage on Fed C3.

The outcome rests on whether the Klingons are able to devise a counter to the weapon - it was only found by a chance adjustment by one ship's chief engineer, rather than an inherent immunity of Klingon ships. If no ship makes that adjustment the alliance could run with their advantage for a long time, perhaps long enough to destroy the Klingons' C3 centres and industrial base. If that happens they could well win the war.

[Teaos]

The Negh'Var: At this point just before the war this ship is very new. I'd be suprised if there is even 6 of them. The Klingons are attacking two fronts at once it doesnt seem hard to believe that all of the Negh'Vars are destroyed or maybe one survives but for all purposes they are eliminated.

Secondly the inital fleets that attack will be either totally destroyed (Like happened in the past with the Breen) Or mostly destroyed in the case of the Cardassians when the Breen come to help. That is a massive blow to the war effort. And numerical advantage the Klingons had has just disapeared or been severly depleted.

Not only that but with the loss of the attacking fleets they would lose the General(s) incharge of the attack since fleet commanders tend to stay with the fleet (Sisko, the Romulan in the DS9 finale, Martok) That is another massive blow to the war effort.

And all of this is being very resonable. The Klingons commit to a massive attack and then get taken out by a new weapon they have no defence for. They have no option but to retreat or get destroyed. The alliance would have loses in the inital attack but the Klingons loses are far higher and more devistating to them.

And that joke of them some how just walking into klingon space and bypassing the defense forces is just mad.

By passing what defences? They burst throught with the EDW in the inital attack and after that they lure the Klingons into a false attack with their superior intellince group (Obsidian order and what ever the breen have) and then burn Qronos to the ground.

The negh'vars maybe lost but those battlestations which make the negh's look like flypaper are still around. That and that thought the C/B forces would even make a dent is just plain silly.

Space stations are stationary (Thus the name) they can be bypassed. They can also be destroyed as they cannot dodge. Every Torpedo sent at them will hit them. Sure they are a good defence but the idea of them holding off the alliance fleet is a bit to much.

What I ment in regards to the Klingon home world is that the Breen and Cardassians know they cant win in a straight fist fight and they know the Klingons weakness'. So they go to take the head off. They cripples the attack to start with by destroying the inital attacking fleet and while they may suffer heavy loses in the attack on Qronos they will achive their goal of leaving the Klingons leaderless and unable to launch a co ordinated attack.

From that point on they either surrender or get slowly picked off family by family.

You base everything off of them winning every battle with every plan working perfectly.

I let the Klingons counter the EDW. It is possible the Klingons never find away around it in which case they are well and truely screwed but I let it be countered or it would be rather one sided.

The Alliance is also taking loses in this time but I is not relivant. The alliance needs this war to be over fast as they cant with stand a long one.

If 2/3 of a fleet is at home is still one hell of a fleet to have to deal with. How can you discount such a force as meaning less?

They sent 1/3 to take on the cardassians but this time they are fighting the breen as well so thats around half their fleet lost or crippled in the inital counter attack with the EDW. That is huge and almost impossible to come back from. the rest of the fleet is fighting a holding pattern and in no shape to launch an counter attack.

[Captain Seafort]

You're assuming that every ship involved in the initial attack will be destroyed when the EDW is deployed, which doesn't make sense when Trek strategy is looked at closely. While it's likely that the fleet that first encounters the weapon will be destroyed, that's not the same as the entire invading force. Most of the invading force will not be engaged, and will probably fall back when news of the defeat reaches them.

You're also massively overstating the effectiveness of an alliance attack on Kronos. The attack on Earth inflicted only superficial damage, and while use of the EDW would give the alliance an advantage, the facts of the matter are that they broke the golden gate bridge and started a few fires. A couple of modern nukes would have done far more damage.

Bottom line is that without the EDW the alliance will get hammered. The Klingons have more and stronger ships, and don't demonstrate in space combat the stupidity they do on the ground. On the contrary, they show intelligence, cunning, and resourcefulness, and relying on tricking them to achieve a victory is effectively admitting that the Klingons are the side most likely to come out of the war the victors.

[Teaos]

Yes the alliance tactic does rely on the EDW but whats wrong with that. It is hugely effective and a great advantage.

You're assuming that every ship involved in the initial attack will be destroyed when the EDW is deployed, which doesn't make sense when Trek strategy is looked at closely. While it's likely that the fleet that first encounters the weapon will be destroyed, that's not the same as the entire invading force.

The Klingon fleet that was mentioned attacked the Breen and was never heard from again. Total loss.

We can assume the same would happen in the first ingagement and since no news would come from what happened the same or a high number would be lost second time as well.

You're also massively overstating the effectiveness of an alliance attack on Kronos. The attack on Earth inflicted only superficial damage, and while use of the EDW would give the alliance an advantage, the facts of the matter are that they broke the golden gate bridge and started a few fires. A couple of modern nukes would have done far more damage.

IIRC that was a small raid of a few ships. I am talking about a massive fleet of a few hundred ships. I alliance is commiting everything it can to this as it is their only hope. They may get nailed but so long as they so their mission to it should go in their favour in the end.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes the alliance tactic does rely on the EDW but whats wrong with that. It is hugely effective and a great advantage.

Unless and until the Klingons develop a countermeasure. Even while the EDW is effective the Breen and Cardassians are outnumbered and outgunned - they'll lose a good few ships in every battle, despite the weapon. If the Klingons discover the solution to the problem (either by chance or by capturing an example of the device), then the alliance is stuffed. They don't have the firepower to take on the Klingons in anything like equal numbers, and they don't have the industrial capacity to make up their losses. Given that the Klingon attack in "Way of the Warrior" collapsed the Cardassian defences and forced the veacuation of the Detapa Council from Cardassia Prime within days, the Cardassians may even be overwhelmed before the Breen can come to their aid.

You're still overestimating the effectiveness of an attack on Kronos - the Earth attack (by an unknown number of ships) did about the same damage a modern airstrike would have done, at the most. Against the Klingons who, being more militaristic likely have far better protected HQ facilities than Starfleet Command's office blocks, would likely suffer even less damage.

[Mikey]

Of course, Seafort makes perfect sense with his counters. Because of the inferiority of C-B initial numbers, ship strengths, and replenishment capability, Teaos admits the need for a deep, fast strike against Q'on'os - however, this type of strike THROUGH DEFENDED KLINGON TERRITORY necessitates a smaller force than a full-scale invasion fleet. As Seafort said, this smaller raiding force wasn't able to do substantial damage to Earth - why would they be able to do it to the Klingon homeworld?

Also, the Klingons are able to launch some harder-hitting deep strikes of their own. If we have to assume a C-B force could reach and attack Q'on'os, we can very easily assume that a stronger Klingon force could attack Cardassia Prime - because we've seen that done - and the Breen homeworld.

Space stations are stationary (Thus the name) they can be bypassed. They can also be destroyed as they cannot dodge. Every Torpedo sent at them will hit them. Sure they are a good defence but the idea of them holding off the alliance fleet is a bit to much.

Whoa - YOU'RE the one who was talking about using stations to set an ambush(!). We're just talking about them being used as defensive stations, which they are. You can't say they're useless on the side you're against, but perfectly effective on the side you support.

[Teaos]

Whoa - YOU'RE the one who was talking about using stations to set an ambush(!). We're just talking about them being used as defensive stations, which they are. You can't say they're useless on the side you're against, but perfectly effective on the side you support.

I was talking about setting some of the small planetary defence ones up to provide protection as a base of operations.

Deep was saying the ones around the home world would hold off a fleet.

I think you are all greatly over estimating the numerical advantage the Klingons have. I think it would be around 2 to 1 or maybe 3 to 1. After the inital defeat by the EDW and other loses caused by it before its countered the odds are far more even.[/quote]

[Mikey]

Even with the EDW, the Cardassians and Breen will suffer some losses. The Klingons can probably replenish their casualties at about a 4:1 ratio v. the C-B Alliance, if not more.

[Deepcrush]

Plus that the klingons had the cardis against the wall after a week or so tells me that the opening battles will be very one sided. Of the C/B forces going after the home world, few to none would be cardi. At best the thing to do would be to have the cardis launch an open offensive against the KE to draw off their forces and allow the breen the chance to launch your raid or whatever you're thinking about. The whole idea is just off. As soon as the klingons learn about the weapon they'll be launching cloaked raids EVERYWHERE! As to the breen cloaks, true enough they have them but you have to decloak to shoot so you're in a lot of trouble come time to open fire on anything. I still think that if everything went your way (teaos) then the best the C/B could hope for is a stalemate.

[Captain Seafort]

As soon as the klingons learn about the weapon they'll be launching cloaked raids EVERYWHERE! As to the breen cloaks, true enough they have them but you have to decloak to shoot so you're in a lot of trouble come time to open fire on anything.

You make it sound as if the Klingons don't have the problem of decloaking to fire. While cloaked raids would be a threat to both sides, they would be a side-show, rather than a critical part of the campaign. That would be decided by Klingon industrial superiority.

[Mikey]

That would be decided by Klingon industrial superiority.

And there's the crux of the matter. We're talking about a war, not a particular raid, skirmish or battle. Sure, the EDW will do a great deal of damage initially, but so will the first Klingon attacks; the ability to replenish one's combat losses is crucial, and heavily weighs in on the side of the Klingons.