War of the Week: I

[Deepcrush]

Not that they would do well just that they have enough ships and troops that it would slow down the Klingons. Its just not a fair war to be honest.

[Captain Seafort]

"If you want fairness, organise a shockball tournament. Don't look for it in warfare."

- Admiral Gilad Pellaeon, "Spectre of the Past"

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly. If this was 'fair' then the only possible conclusion would be a draw. For one side to win, it must have something the other doesn't, thus automaticaly making it unfair.

[Deepcrush]

I was talking about the comparison, not the war.

[Teaos]

I still think the alliance has the better chance of winning. I'll lay out a time line of how I think it would happen.

Week 1: Klingons attack gaining the advantage of first move and gaining some territory in Cardassian space and while their initial attack into Breen space went well punching rather deep their intire attacking force was destroyed on the third day with no word from any of them since.

Week 2: The breen have hit hard right into Klingon space destroying or crippling several space yards and planetary bases including several historic Klingon sights bringing shame on the defenders, the Breen incure lose on their ships but the damage delt far out ways it. The Cardassians with the aid of a Breen force redeploy their fleet pushing the Klingons out of their space and capture some Klingon territory.

Week 3: The Klingons finally uncover the secret of the Breen weapon which is now all but useless. With that adavantage gone the front line solidify some as everyone regroups. The Cardassian advance is all halted but the Klingons can not drive the Defenders out as they have set up several fortified systems.

Week 4: The Klingons seeking to regain lost honor for the attack on some of their historic sights by the Breen prepare a massive counter attack on a joint Breen/Cardassian system. As they dive in for the kill they find only a small defence force which quickly cloaks and falls leading the Klingons into a ambush of planetary defence platforms the Cardassians brought in. At the same time the Force which was supposed to be their breaks through the token defence left behind and attacks and captures the Klingon home world and their military and governmental leaders.

Week 5: While the Klingons fight on under individal house banners and small fleets they lack the co-ordination to do anything more than raid and achive small victories. During this time the Alliance manage to fortify their position and then work on eliminating the rest of the resistence.

War over.

[Captain Seafort]

While I agree with the initial sequence of "Klingons overwhelm alliance, energy damper turns the tide, Klingons develop countermeasure", I disagree with the events after that. Neither the Cardassians nor the Breen have the industrial capacity to go toe-to-toe with the Klingons. Remember that this is the race that, albeit in an alternate timeline, has the strength to take on the Federation and win. The Cardie and Breen ships are also weaker individually than the Klngons' - the Defiant could disable a Keldon-class ship, or destroy a Breen warship with a single volley, which makes a Breen ship roughly equal to a BoP. Moreover, the degree of militarisation of Klingon society would make any invasion of their homeworld an exceptionally bloody and drawn out affair - a long range penetration force wouldn't be able to do it.

[Mikey]

That lack of industrial and economic footing also means that the C-B Alliance wouldn't be able to set up fortofoed systems that quickly.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay. I'm just going to go by Graham's fleet numbers, and I'm also going to assume the Breen fleet is equal in numbers to the Cardasians.

their intire attacking force was destroyed on the third day with no word from any of them since.

How? It would be rather difficult to take out several hundred ships (at least) without even one of them getting off a warning.

The breen have hit hard right into Klingon space destroying or crippling several space yards and planetary bases

Klingon facilities don't seem to suffer from the chronic lack of defenses the Fed ones do. In the unlikely event that they could even get past the frontlines without being detected, most of their attacking forces would be destroyed. At best, you're looking at a pyhric victory.

including several historic Klingon sights bringing shame on the defenders

This would simply make the Klingons fight harder, so its rather counter-productive.

The Cardassians with the aid of a Breen force redeploy their fleet pushing the Klingons out of their space and capture some Klingon territory.

That is extremely unlikely to be very helpful. While a massive counter attack might regain the original Cardasian territory, the Breen will lose massive amounts of their own, due to their fleets now being somewhere completely different.

With that adavantage gone the front line solidify some as everyone regroups.

And the front lines move swiftly towards the Breen/Cardasian homeworlds, as the Klingons bring their superior numbers, experience and industrial capacity to bear.

but the Klingons can not drive the Defenders out as they have set up several fortified systems.

What do you mean by 'fortified'? A few photon torpedoes would take down any major facilities on the surface of planets, allowing for a rather easy ground invasion.

The Klingons seeking to regain lost honor for the attack on some of their historic sights by the Breen prepare a massive counter attack on a joint Breen/Cardassian system.

Or they could just, you know, attack their homeworlds.

As they dive in for the kill they find only a small defence force which quickly cloaks

I can't remember, do the Breen have cloaks?

leading the Klingons into a ambush of planetary defence platforms the Cardassians brought in.

Yeah. Because naturaly the Cardasian government would shove these very important defensive platforms out at a place where the Klingons just happen to be attacking.
And how do you ambush someone with stationary defence platforms?

At the same time the Force which was supposed to be their breaks through the token defence left behind and attacks and captures the Klingon home world and their military and governmental leaders.

Sorry, but what?
Are you suggesting that the Klingon government sent its entire fleet to attack this planet? Are you suggesting that they would leave no defences whatsoever to protect their territory, despite them being rather territorial? Are you suggesting that the Cardasians and Breen would, somehow, still have the resources and manpower to launch such an attack? Are you suggesting that the C/B would not have their own homeworlds under attack, despite the many advantages on the Klingon side?
Sorry, but that statement just makes no sense.

Okay, lets take a look at what I think would happen:

Phase 1:
Klingons go to war over some reason. Due to their ship's greater power, they are easily able to break through the borders of both powers. Light losses on the Cardasian front, moderate losses on the Breen front. The Alliance is forced onto the defensive.

Phase 2:
The Cardasian homeworld is taken, with moderate losses. The Breen cannot assist, as they're to busy trying to stop the Klingons superior numbers and power from overrunning their own worlds. The EDW causes havok for a little while, perhaps allowing the Breen a small time to regorup, but is eventualy neutralised and the Klingons are on the offensive again. There may be a few raids against Klingon facilities, which the Klingons will probably respond to in kind, though they're unlikely to have much effect against the KE. This is where the Klingon's greater industrial capacity, territorial size, and manpower will start to pay off. Moderate losses on the Cardasian front, probably heavy losses on the Breen front.

Phase 3:
The KE sets up a small garrison force in what used to be Cardasian space, allowing them to move the rest of their military forces to the Breen front. The Breen are eventualy overrun, though they will probably be able to cause heavy losses during the fighting.

War over.

[Teaos]

When I say capture the home world i don't mean like they did with Bajor I mean capture the government and blow up anything that is even remotly important with their fleet. Cripple the planet. Neither the Cardassians nor Breen seem to have a great deal of morals especially when it comes to enemies.

After the Goverment is down the Klingons will still fight but with out leaders they will be limited to raiding and with several key fleet yards gone they will adventually lose.

[Sionnach Glic]

When I say capture the home world i don't mean like they did with Bajor I mean capture the government and blow up anything that is even remotly important with their fleet. Cripple the planet. Neither the Cardassians nor Breen seem to have a great deal of morals especially when it comes to enemies.

1: The C/B ain't gonna get the chance to do such a raid. They'll be pretty much constantly on the defensive, and Q'on'os is going to be well defended.

2: What's to stop the Klingons just bombing the C/B homeworlds in a similar raid?

[Teaos]

2: What's to stop the Klingons just bombing the C/B homeworlds in a similar raid?

This is rather soon after the push into Klingon territory so the Klingons arent in the position to get to alliance space they are trying to clear out their own space.

1: The C/B ain't gonna get the chance to do such a raid. They'll be pretty much constantly on the defensive, and Q'on'os is going to be well defended.

And the reason they get to do the raid is because of the fake fleet which I think is something the obsidian order could pull off rather well. That and the Klingons wanting to attack and regain lost honor and territory would make them less likely to see the trap. In the dominon war it was always the Feds who were careful and the Klingons who wanted to dive right in.
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[Captain Seafort]

When I say capture the home world i don't mean like they did with Bajor I mean capture the government and blow up anything that is even remotly important with their fleet. Cripple the planet. Neither the Cardassians nor Breen seem to have a great deal of morals especially when it comes to enemies.

A raiding force will certainly be able to do some damage, but even against the notoriously incompetant Starfleet they were only able to make a mess of San Francisco, and the only effect of that was morale. They didn't knock out Starfleet Command, and they missed Paris entirely. Against the Klingons, who are known to surround their key command facilities with multi-km long battlestations, they'd do even less damage.

After the Goverment is down the Klingons will still fight but with out leaders they will be limited to raiding and with several key fleet yards gone they will adventually lose.

Or the senior surviving military officer will take command and go after the alliance. The lack of any apparent distinction between the Klingon civilian government and the military chain of command acts in the Klingons favour, since the first commander who shouts "kill the pataks, follow me!" will likely be acclaimed Chancellor, and the war continues. That's asuming the alliance even manages to take out the existing leadership, which is, as both Rochey and myself have pointed out, is highly unlikely.

[Captain Seafort]

In the dominon war it was always the Feds who were careful and the Klingons who wanted to dive right in.

It took a lot of convincing for Gowron to allow the Klingon fleet to participate in Operation Return, and the Klingons also proved quite adept at holding off 20 to 1 odds using hit-and-run attacks and avoiding direct confrontation after 2nd Chin'toka.

[Sionnach Glic]

This is rather soon after the push into Klingon territory so the Klingons arent in the position to get to alliance space they are trying to clear out their own space.

What push into Klingon space? The Alliance is never going to get near the Klingon borders, as I already pointed out. They're going to be on the defensive the whole time. The EDW may allow them a bit of breathing space, but not for long.

And the reason they get to do the raid is because of the fake fleet which I think is something the obsidian order could pull off rather well.

The Cardasians would have been crushed from the begining, and the Breen would be stupid to waste their own fleets to try to defend them, as it would take vital forces away from their own fronts.

[Teaos]

What push into Klingon space? The Alliance is never going to get near the Klingon borders, as I already pointed out. They're going to be on the defensive the whole time. The EDW may allow them a bit of breathing space, but not for long.

The push caused by the energy dampening weapon. For the first 2 or 3 weeks before it is countered the Klingons can do sweet f*ck all to fight back. After their intial attack is destroyed by the suprise of the weapon the Breen can then plow right through their defences hitting deep into their space and claim a few systems to make bases of operation from.

So long as that weapon isnt countered the Klingons are pretty much screwed.

The Cardasians would have been crushed from the begining, and the Breen would be stupid to waste their own fleets to try to defend them, as it would take vital forces away from their own fronts.

The Breen would help them because they cant win the war by themselves. They send a force in with the energy weapon to drive out the Klingons who did screw nail the Cardassians in the intial attack. But once they are driven out and the Cardassians regroup they could at the least hold their line for awhile and with the help of the energy weapon push into the terrioty while they have the advantage.

The Cardassians did get screwed over by the Klingons in an all out war where the Klingons broke through their line and went right for the military leaders.

But then the Feds and Cardassians had a war which the Cardassians managed to hold their own in rather well since it was more of a boarder dispute thne wanting to conquer.