Hows this for a split...

[Vic]

[Graham Kennedy]

Well flagship means something a little different in Trek, remember. It basically means "prestige ship" rather than command ship of a fleet.

[Captain Seafort]

OK, there's a difference in the size of the ships they build. Hoo-friggin'-ray.

That is a vast difference - the rest is insignificant by comparison.

The same shipbuilding principles exist in both timelines.

Other than the fact that the Connie over fifteen times the size it is in the Geneverse. If you saw a universe in which the political and cultural landscape was the same, but the Nimitz class ships were a kilometre long and had a million-and-a-half ton displacement, would you call it a minor change?

The differences are minimal compared to what we should reasonably expect if the point of divergence was as early as ENT: "Storm Front."

What makes you say that? If anything, the differences are far greater than you'd expect from a SF POD, assuming the NX-01 we saw belong to the Geneverse. Of course given that, as has been stated many times, the NX-01 is far too advanced to be a century prior to TOS, its possible that Enterprise is part of the pre-Nero Abramsverse (IU of course).

[Mikey]

Other than the fact that the Connie over fifteen times the size it is in the Geneverse. If you saw a universe in which the political and cultural landscape was the same, but the Nimitz class ships were a kilometre long and had a million-and-a-half ton displacement, would you call it a minor change?

I certainly would. The size - even the capability - of the ships built is a strictly cosmetic change when the paradigms of culture, politics, philosphy, etc., are the same.

What makes you say that?

What makes me say that is the fact that a "Storm Front" PoD would affect the germination of the UFP entirely, not to mention Earth history. The idea that there is a UFP and Starfleet, with seemingly the same guiding principles (scale of shipbuilding notwithstanding) seems to indicate that nothing drastically affected the birth of the Federation.

[Captain Seafort]

I certainly would. The size - even the capability - of the ships built is a strictly cosmetic change when the paradigms of culture, politics, philosphy, etc., are the same.

What makes me say that is the fact that a "Storm Front" PoD would affect the germination of the UFP entirely, not to mention Earth history. The idea that there is a UFP and Starfleet, with seemingly the same guiding principles (scale of shipbuilding notwithstanding) seems to indicate that nothing drastically affected the birth of the Federation.

Utter bullshit. So what if the façade of the society is the same? The guts of the 'verse's history must be dramatically different it they're able to build such a large ship (and apparently capable of speeds at least rivalling the Intrepid if the Earth-Vulcan trip is anything to go by). The fact that similar organisations are going by the same names, and the same people were born into similar circumstances, is irrelevant. Unusual, and unexpected, but nothing compared to the vast jump observed in shipbuilding technology.

[Mikey]

You've got it backwards. The ability to build bigger ships is what's cosmetic; the fact of culture/government/inter-species relations/general philosophy is what the true important determinant is.

[Captain Seafort]

Evidence?

Culture can change very rapidly, especially given that we saw only a very limited view of it, and we know little to nothing about TOS-era Fed culture. Indeed the fact that no-one's dressed like it's the sixties suggests that there have been significant cultural changes. Technology, on the other hand, especially technology that relates to the size of ships they're capable of building, requires centuries of development. A POD in the mid 2150s isn't early enough to account for the massive size difference between the Geneverse and Abramsverse Constitutions.

[Mikey]

You really believe that, don't you? OK, here's a thought experiment:

You are a sociologist, newly landed in Australia to study the as-yet undocumented Australian Aborigines. You have ample time to study their inter- and intra-tribal customs, policies, religion, practices, etc., etc. You can formulate your thoughts on the Aborigines based either on a) a careful study of all of the above; or b) the solitary fact that they use war boomerangs instead of bows.

What you're doing in your discussion of the determining factor is tantamount to option "b" above. Ignoring all cultural evidence for the fact of the form - not even the level - of the extant technology. To say we don't know the state of TOS culture is BS. What we need to take from a comparison of STXI with TOS is simply the fact that there is a UFP; there is a Starfleet, who's missions (judging by the intial attempts of the Kelvin to contact the Narada) are similar in nature, or at least intent; there is a Starfleet Academy with at least somewhat of the same goals and objectives (judging by the corresponding presence of the Kobayashi Maru test,) et. al.

[Captain Seafort]

You are a sociologist, newly landed in Australia to study the as-yet undocumented Australian Aborigines. You have ample time to study their inter- and intra-tribal customs, policies, religion, practices, etc., etc. You can formulate your thoughts on the Aborigines based either on a) a careful study of all of the above; or b) the solitary fact that they use war boomerangs instead of bows.

Minor difference. Let's try another thought experiment. You find two tribes. Their cultures are similar, however one group is using dug out canoes, while the other has small Carrack-built sailing vessels. While would you say is the more advanced tribe? That's the sort of difference I'm getting at.

[Mikey]

I understand what you're saying, but an even better analogy would be one tribe using a carrack, and the other using a similarly built nao or something of the same level, just twice as big.

In any event, it's simply a difference of opinion on descriptors; you're talking about how a culture wages war or prosecutes other tasks; which can be a valuable commentary, no doubt, but at best leads to deduction. I'm talking about why a culture prosecutes those tasks, which speaks to the very essence of that culture.

[Captain Seafort]

I understand what you're saying, but an even better analogy would be one tribe using a carrack, and the other using a similarly built nao or something of the same level, just twice as big.

Hardly of the same level - the neoE isn't just far bigger than the E-nil (and by a lot more than twice the size), she's a lot faster. She also apparently uses a different form of propulsion, or at the very least a form that has distinctly different appearance, both in operation and in the guts of the ship and the appearance of her technology is different (the most obvious example being the bridge window). She's clearly a product of a distinctly different industrial and technological base to that which constructed the E-nil.

In any event, it's simply a difference of opinion on descriptors; you're talking about how a culture wages war or prosecutes other tasks; which can be a valuable commentary, no doubt, but at best leads to deduction. I'm talking about why a culture prosecutes those tasks, which speaks to the very essence of that culture.

Nonetheless, when trying to determine a point of departure in the timeline, we have to consider all evidence. When part of that evidence is the existence of a ship similar in size to one that was considered very large and very impressive over a century later in the original timeline, then it should be obvious that the differences are far greater than the loss of a single ship. If I decided I wanted to build a battleship in my back garden, would that desire allow me to do so? Of course not - I don't have the industrial capacity to do so.

[Mikey]

the neoE isn't just far bigger than the E-nil (and by a lot more than twice the size), she's a lot faster. She also apparently uses a different form of propulsion,

TBH, I've only watched it twice and I don't recall a top end being mentioned.

She's clearly a product of a distinctly different industrial and technological base to that which constructed the E-nil.

A different aesthetic, definitely, and a base geared toward larger constructs. Other than that, I don't know.

When part of that evidence is the existence of a ship similar in size to one that was considered very large and very impressive over a century later in the original timeline, then it should be obvious that the differences are far greater than the loss of a single ship.

Part of that evidence is also the multitude of similarities between the two timelines.

If I decided I wanted to build a battleship in my back garden, would that desire allow me to do so?

With you, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Sionnach Glic]

TBH, I've only watched it twice and I don't recall a top end being mentioned.

I think he's basing that on Graham's calcs. IIRC, he pegged the nE as being quite a bit faster than the oE.

A different aesthetic, definitely, and a base geared toward larger constructs. Other than that, I don't know.

Building a far bigger ship isn't just as easy as merely scaling up the blueprints. The fact that the nE is so large hints that the Abramsverse Federation has a far better grasp of construction and a superior industrial base to the original Federation at that time.

[Mikey]

Quite possibly, and I don't deny that. All I'm saying is that the similarities in the ethos of the culture outweigh the differences in the rather cosmetic aspect of technical abilities of starship construction.

[Captain Seafort]

TBH, I've only watched it twice and I don't recall a top end being mentioned.

It wasn't, but even a six hour trip to Vulcan would have her averaging 20+ kc - faster than Voyager's flat-out sprint speed mentioned in The 37s.

Part of that evidence is also the multitude of similarities between the two timelines.

And? As I've said before they're superficial similarities. The disparity between the respective industrial capabilities demonstrates that it can't be anything more.

If I decided I wanted to build a battleship in my back garden, would that desire allow me to do so?

With you, I wouldn't be surprised.

Don't be daft - how could anyone build a battleship in a garden? Unlike you I have to go a tad further than the bottom of the garden path to find the oggin.