How did the Borg come about?

[Captain Seafort]

You said you didn't see any complaints about the TNG Klingon re-vamp. I reminded you of mine and Rochey's objections and the reasoning behind them. "Maximum personal glory" is not an excuse for outright stupidity.

[Mikey]

No, stupidity is the excuse fro stupidity. We may not think much of their tactical abilities, but at least the idea fits with what we know of Klingons.

[Captain Seafort]

My point is that this obsession with personnal glory at the expense of intelligence is a TNG phenomenon - just as the transformation of the Borg into space vampires is a Voyager phenomenon. Teaos pointed out that there's much griping about Voyager ruining the Borg, and claimed that there's no such similar griping about TNG ruining the Klingons. I'm pointing out that there is.

[Jim]

There is a big difference between having a small sample of a race appear in a couple episodes, and having them as a full-blown race showing up as a consistant, repeating character. The Borg in early TNG could be whatever the writers wanted because hey were new. When you have to write them into 50 episodes, that changes a lot.

Also... consider this: You are in a war zone and come across one partol of soldiers. Are they going to act and be exactly the same as if you came across one full brigade of soldiers? Would they be the same as if you went to the Pentigon and came across the brass? Now that is just an analogy, not an attempt at an exact parrallel, so don't get too caught up in specifics/semantics... Things change, things must change, when you flush out a race/character.

[Captain Seafort]

Flesh out means "expand on what we already know", not "completely change the entire concept of the species".

The Klingons changed from a metaphor for the Soviet Union - a competent, politically and militarily intelligent threat to the Federation, into Space Vikings, with a complete lack of understanding even the most basic of military tactics. They make Fed soldiers look like the SAS.

The Borg changed from a decentralised collective consciousness to a highly centralised consciousness, where hitting any one of several single-points of failure could knock out a cube. Moreover they changed from a species that merely had spokespeople, without leaders, into one where every single action was controlled by a stereotypical evil overlord.

[Jim]

Flesh out means "expand on what we already know", not "completely change the entire concept of the species".

The Klingons changed from a metaphor for the Soviet Union - a competent, politically and militarily intelligent threat to the Federation, into Space Vikings, with a complete lack of understanding even the most basic of military tactics. They make Fed soldiers look like the SAS.

The Borg changed from a decentralised collective consciousness to a highly centralised consciousness, where hitting any one of several single-points of failure could knock out a cube. Moreover they changed from a species that merely had spokespeople, without leaders, into one where every single action was controlled by a stereotypical evil overlord.

I think that DS9 helped show that basically the Klingos had simply lost their way. They used to be about honor power and conquest, but they devolved into bullies resting on stories of old. When the old warriors came onto the show they always yearned for the old days because that was when the Empire meant something. Their society had basically fallen and simply couldn't admit it to itself. Sort of like the Centauri in B5

I don't think the Borg changed that much. Once again we are comparing a small sample size of a few cubes to the race as a whole. You can not take the way a single cube acts/reacts and compare that to the whole race. Just like bees or ants... a few drones out on their own do not act the same way as when at the hive/nest.

Didn't TNG actually shut doen cubes using attacks on single points before Voyager did? didn't the Borg Queen first appear in TNG before Voyager?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Actually the queen first appeared in FC. The writers created her so it wouldn't be a movie about beating super smart robot zombies. You know, to give them personality. Kind of giving them an avatar.

[Captain Seafort]

I think that DS9 helped show that basically the Klingos had simply lost their way. They used to be about honor power and conquest, but they devolved into bullies resting on stories of old. When the old warriors came onto the show they always yearned for the old days because that was when the Empire meant something. Their society had basically fallen and simply couldn't admit it to itself. Sort of like the Centauri in B5

Sure you can make up in-universe excuses for why they changed (the concept of a civil war leading to an upsurge in religious fundamentalism is probably the best one), but that doesn't change the fact that the real cause was poor writing.

I don't think the Borg changed that much. Once again we are comparing a small sample size of a few cubes to the race as a whole. You can not take the way a single cube acts/reacts and compare that to the whole race. Just like bees or ants... a few drones out on their own do not act the same way as when at the hive/nest.

TNG Borg: Collective consciousness, no single leader

Voyager Borg: All controlloed centrally by the Queen.

They changed the entire concept of the Borg.

As I said above, you can make excuses, but the fundamental reason is poor writing.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I don't think the Borg changed that much. Once again we are comparing a small sample size of a few cubes to the race as a whole. You can not take the way a single cube acts/reacts and compare that to the whole race. Just like bees or ants... a few drones out on their own do not act the same way as when at the hive/nest.

"Q Who?" specifically stated that the Borg ship was a decentralised design, with no apparent bridge, engineering or living quarters. "Unimatrix Zero" introduced the "central plexus" - the nerve centre of the cube that allowed it to remain in contact with the rest of the collective. That's about as centralised as you can get.

True, but in Q Who they may not have recognized the 'central plexes' as a nerve center. They were looking for stuff they were used to finding with more conventional designs. Well, that would be the in-universe explination. In real life, the writers just realized they made the Borg too tough and decided to give them weak spots.

[Deepcrush]

[quote="Captain Seafort"]The Klingons changed from a metaphor for the Soviet Union - a competent, politically and militarily intelligent threat to the Federation, into Space Vikings, with a complete lack of understanding even the most basic of military tactics. They make Fed soldiers look like the SAS.quote]

Hey hey hey! Lets not jump of the cliff to quickly now!

[Jim]

TNG Borg: Collective consciousness, no single leader

Voyager Borg: All controlloed centrally by the Queen.

They changed the entire concept of the Borg.

As I said above, you can make excuses, but the fundamental reason is poor writing.

Excuse is just another word for explination. If people do not want to hear explinations they call them excuses. I could just as easily say that you holding to the "original" version of the Borg is an excuse for not "accepting" the later version. Maybe the early versions of the Borg/Klingons was the bad writing... lack of forethought...

Anyway... As I said, the Borg queen appeard in TNG format before she did Voyager.

[Deepcrush]

Remember the queen just forms the cpu of the borg, and is replaced if lost.

[Deepcrush]

As to the klingons well i wouldn't call them the centari. The centari knew that their empire was dying. They didn't have the denial that the klingons do.

[Jim]

As to the klingons well i wouldn't call them the centari. The centari knew that their empire was dying. They didn't have the denial that the klingons do.

It was a general analogy ("sort of like") rather than a direct parrallel.

... wait... was that an in-universe excuse due to bad writing, or just a simple explination of what I meant? Darn cannon!

[Deepcrush]

The centari were good writing. A falling empire fighting to outlast those whom it once controled.

The new klingons were mixed good and bad writing. They could have been great if they had showed some internal conflict over everything.