Picards mistakes

[Sionnach Glic]

Arrgh!
I just had a massive big reply written out, with quotes from the New Testament and everything, and my f***ing computer crashed.

I'll retype it for you later, I'm really not in the mood now.

[Sionnach Glic]

Actually, the main thing that made Chesterton a Christian was not these arguments, but his search for a new philosophy; as his opinions developed, he would come up with all kinds of exciting new ideas, only to find that he had merely rediscovered an ancient Christian doctrine.

Such as?

It was this gradual sense of the rightness of Christianity, and his gradual realization of exactly how well it fit in with reality

Believe me, talking animals and world-engulfing floods have no basis in reality.

some of its doctrines that he found monstrous on closer examination seemed to fit it even better than he could ever imagine.

Such as?

For the last time; that is the Levitical law...which Christians do not follow. I agree that it sound bizarre today, which is why I don't follow it... If you want me to take you seriously, you're going to have to come up with something at the very least from another part of the Bible.

Another part of the Bible? No problem. Does the Book of Chrinicles count?

So now the LORD is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow.

Why is the loving God going to kill these people? Becuase Jehoram permitted sexual promiscuity in Israel.

Hmm, though maybe Chronicles doesn't count either? What about the Psalms?

Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue.

To him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, His love endures forever.

O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us-- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

Well, that last one was particularly unpleasant. On to the Book of Proverbs...

He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

Blows and wounds cleanse away evil, and beatings purge the inmost being

The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to himself disgraces his mother.

A servant cannot be corrected by mere words; though he understands, he will not respond.

The eye that mocks a father, that scorns obedience to a mother, will be pecked out by the ravens of the valley, will be eaten by the vultures.

How nice. Anyway, let's move on to the New Testament, and see what Jesus and co think.
Let's start at the beginning, with Mathew.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Hmm, seems Jesus actually doesn't have a problem with the old laws and stuff.

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. [what ever happend to happy hippy Jesus?]

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Here Jesus criticises the Pharisees for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death".

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!] and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Damn, now I don't like Jesus any more.
Anyway, on to Mark.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And....that's it for Mark. He pretty much repeats what Mathew said earlier, and I see no need in repeating him. Oh, well. Onwards to Luke!

And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Um, this is far too long to quote. Basicaly, it's about a rich man, and Lazarus. The rich man goes to hell, becuase he had a good life on Earth, and so deserves to be tormented...or something like that.
Lazarus, on the other hand, goes to heaven. Becuase his life sucked.
Somehow, this seems fair to Jesus.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. [Jesus seems to have no problem with God causing the largest genocide in human history]

Okay, that had a bit more content than Mark, anyway. On to the last Gospell, which is John's.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Okay, not particularly horrific as such, but I just thought I'd point out the absurdity of the situation. God and Jesus are pretty much the same enitiy, right? So...
God puts a curse on humanity, then sends down himself, to sacrafice himself to himself, to cconvince himself to remove the curse that he himself put on humanity in the first place.
....does no one else see a problem with this?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Okay, not much in there (still more than Mark's, though. What the hell was he doing? Just coppying off of Mathew?) so we'll jump ahead to Acts.

And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Yeah, because massacering the inhabatints of several cities is definately mercifull.

Another long ramble. Basicaly, Peter scares Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land.

And so concludes Acts. Now we'll go and have a look at Romans.

Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Aparently, the "crime" of homosexuality is worthy of death. How pleasant.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Um, so because one guy sinned, everyone else is going to suffer for it? How is that remotely fair?

On to Corinthians 1.

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

The 'destroyer' mentioned above is God.
And how the heck can are you supposed to tempt Christ? Isn't he dead?

Anyway, off to the Ephesians.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
*snippy*
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Soooo, God already knows whether we're gettting into heaven or hell?
And....that's pretty much it for Ephesians. There's a bit in there about disobedient children being struck down, but I'd just be repeating myself by quoting it.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

How nice to know that I'll be burning in hell for no reason.
And now we get to the greatest mass of insanity in the Bible: Revelations. There's a lot in here about how us evil non-believers are going to burn unpleasantly, simply because we don't worship one particular god, but I'll ignore those. Otherwise, I'd be quoting the whole chapter!

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel

Well, that bit sucks. It seems like only 144,000 Jews will be getting into heaven, after all.

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth [how could they? God already killed the grass in 8:7.], neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.[Wait, is God telling them to eat her and then burn her?]

And so concludes my Oddysey through the Bible. And you have to admit; whether or not you're on my side of the debate, that was a lot of effort. Particularly when you take into acount the fact that I had to write it twice.

If you want me to take you seriously, you're going to have to come up with something at the very least from another part of the Bible.

Done.

[Teaos]

Then there is the stuff that isnt in the Bible but the church inforces anyway like no meat on Fridays.

Do you know why that law was invoked by the church? Because the Italian fish market was in a huge slump for awhile so the pope said they cant eat meat on fridays only fish... he also said anyone who doesnt do this shall be doomed... So because he wanted to boost the local economy we are doomed to hell several hudred years latter for no good reason?

Then you have other morality issues.

No condoms? Sure we will condem MILLIONS to die of AIDS and other dieseases because christians think it morally wrong.

[Sionnach Glic]

Then there is the stuff that isnt in the Bible but the church inforces anyway like no meat on Fridays.

Don't forget; the content of the Bible was picked and chosen by a bunch of guys who live centuries after Jesus supposedly did. It makes you wonder what parts they left out...

[Captain Peabody]

My...gosh. No offense, but that was the biggest load of crap I've read in a long, long time.

Such as?

As much as I'd love to continue this discussion, recapping the entire book would probably take a little too long to do here... if you really want to know, read the book. Otherwise, I can't help you.

Why is the loving God going to kill these people? Becuase Jehoram permitted sexual promiscuity in Israel.

Okay; I'm going to cut through a whole bunch of your so-called 'evil quotes' in one go, and go on to the heart of what this debate has been about since the beginning...basically, you (and every other Atheist in the universe, it seems) have a problem with the idea of Judgement, with God punishing people, and with God being anything other than our 'big ol pal in the sky.' Well, if that's the kind of God you want, its not the God you'll find in Christianity...or any other religion, except for the ones you make up for yourself.
Basically, you seem to be laboring under the idea that if God was really good, if he really loved us, he'd just leave us alone, let us be. But that's not what love, true love is. The kind of love you want is not love at all- its disinterest. If someone you loved was addicted to drugs, would you really be loving him if you just left him alone, and kept giving him money and food; and even if in the end you had to simply throw him out, or put him in jail, that would not in any mean that you didn't love him. True love does not want to just love us as we are-- it wants to make us into something that is worthy of that love.
And God is also Good; really, truly Good. You don't seem to know what that means; you seem to think that true goodness would find it easy to simply ignore our sins. Well, you're wrong. Every single one of our sins cries out to God for punishment; and because he is really, truly Good; because he really truly loves us; he cannot simply ignore those sins and pretend they do not exist.
And what you also don't understand is that even if he did; even if he ignored our sins, and did as you suggest; accepted us for what and who we are, was tolerant of our mistakes, and gave us all the good gifts he really, truly wants to give us; placed us back in Paradise; well, if we were really, truly as we are today, we'd turn it into Hell.
The wrath of God burns hot against us, and it burns for a reason; we are his creations, who have turned against him and worshiped idols, blasphemed against him, ignored his commandments and teachings; even His chosen people, Israel, again and again turned against him. God is angry--justly, rightfully angry. But because God also loves us, because his love for us is past all imagining; instead of simply destroying us all, giving us up to our just reward; instead of giving us that which we truly deserve. Instead, He gave us his Only Begotten Son, that through Him we might be saved. And yes, Jesus is in the Bible associated with God; He is God, just as much as the Father; very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; if you want, I can explain this doctrine further, but its really not that complicated. Jesus came to us, and for a time walked among us as one of us; but even then, we despised Him; we crucified Him. But when Jesus was Crucified, instead of it being a defeat, it became a victory; Jesus took on, on Himself, all the penalties, all the righteous judgement, that we deserved. He took on the very wrath of God upon himself; and he bore it, so that he might pay the price for the sins of all those who believed in him and kept his commandments.
But even now, even when he has borne the price for our sin, there are still some who reject him; who blaspheme against him, who refuse to be saved; and what can God do, in the end, after offering them every chance of repenting, every chance of being saved, but simply give up on them, to give them at last the punishment they have bought for themselves; to give themselves over to the full consequences of their sin. Again, I can further explain this doctrine, and the Christian conception of Hell, if you wish. But I'm not going to continue to take this kind of crap.
But if you really want your nice, comfortable religion, where we all sin and do whatever the heck we want while the Big Santa Claus in the sky gazes disinterestedly down upon us and showers down presents, where we're all unencumbered with all these nasty 'Truths' and 'Doctrines'; then I suggest you head down and join your local Unitarian Universalist 'Church,' down deep in the decaying ruins of Christendom, where Relativism rules supreme, and preachers mumble half-remembered slogans about peace and love as they slowly but surely break every single one of God's commandments. If that's truly what you want, then be my guest. But I doubt you'll find it to your liking.

Okay, rant over. But your post really, really, really bugged me, and I thought it was time to really get to the bottom of the whole issue. So its a bit long...you understand, don't you?

[Teaos]

...ok. So you say God gives us rules to live by because he loves us and wants to put us on the right path to salvation. I can accept that, i dont agree with it but I can accept it. What I cannot get is how you can possibly defend some of those rules.

You said that the church no longer follows the old rules. Which in and of its self is odd sine it seems to change with public opinion.

You asked us to supply some more relivant quotes... which Rochey did beautifully. Then you choose to ignore said quotes and say god loves us and is just guiding us to paradise and better lives.

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Justify that please. Do your honor your mother and father all the time? Do I? No.

What if our Dad was Hitler or Stalin or some other asshole? Do we honor them then?

Please justifie a few of those quotes from the NEW testament that Rochey got. After all they are what we are supposed to live by.

Okay; I'm going to cut through a whole bunch of your so-called 'evil quotes' in one go, and go on to the heart of what this debate has been about since the beginning...basically, you (and every other Atheist in the universe, it seems) have a problem with the idea of Judgement, with God punishing people, and with God being anything other than our 'big ol pal in the sky.' Well, if that's the kind of God you want, its not the God you'll find in Christianity...or any other religion, except for the ones you make up for yourself.

I have a problem with judgement, and with stupid rules that kill millions of people, I have a problem with an organisation that brain washes millions of people under the guise of humanitarian aid, I have a problem with an organisation that shelters and army of pedophiles, I have a problem with an organisation that has one of the most lavish head offices in the world while people starve. What that? Its harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle? If thats the case the pope is going to burn in hell.

You dont need a higher power to love you. Love your self. After that evrything else will come.

If someone you loved was addicted to drugs, would you really be loving him if you just left him alone, and kept giving him money and food; and even if in the end you had to simply throw him out, or put him in jail, that would not in any mean that you didn't love him.

How HOW does god help drug addicts? You brought that point up to show that if you love someone you dont sit back and let them self destruct. But that is exactly what god has done. He made us gave us a bunch of crappy rules to live by and washed his hands of the matter.

[Sionnach Glic]

My...gosh. No offense, but that was the biggest load of crap I've read in a long, long time.

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion.

Okay; I'm going to cut through a whole bunch of your so-called 'evil quotes' in one go, and go on to the heart of what this debate has been about since the beginning...basically, you (and every other Atheist in the universe, it seems) have a problem with the idea of Judgement, with God punishing people, and with God being anything other than our 'big ol pal in the sky.'

Nope. I've stated from the very beginning of my invlovement in this debate that my problem is with people claiming the Bible is a good source of morals. Which I have just proved it is clearly not.

Basically, you seem to be laboring under the idea that if God was really good, if he really loved us, he'd just leave us alone, let us be.

That would be far better than depopulating the entire planet once, planning to do it again, destroying two cities, massacreing innocent children, etc, etc, etc.

If someone you loved was addicted to drugs, would you really be loving him if you just left him alone, and kept giving him money and food; and even if in the end you had to simply throw him out, or put him in jail, that would not in any mean that you didn't love him.

How could that possibly be construed as 'helping'? Which is what God should be doing if he was loving. And how does wiping out two cities, and depopulating the entire planet, and killing innocent children, help humanity?

And God is also Good; really, truly Good.

So...he agrees with Hitler? Becuase those guys sound like they'd get on great together.

You don't seem to know what that means; you seem to think that true goodness would find it easy to simply ignore our sins.

No, if he was good he'd halp us. Not release plagues on us.

Every single one of our sins cries out to God for punishment; and because he is really, truly Good; because he really truly loves us; he cannot simply ignore those sins and pretend they do not exist.

You mean the sin of swearing at an abusive parent? The sin of a woman doing anything else than being a wife and mother? The sin of having sex? The sin of homosexuality? These things justify genocide on a scale unseen in human history? Whatever happened to forgiveness?

And what you also don't understand is that even if he did; even if he ignored our sins, and did as you [didn't] suggest; accepted us for what and who we are, was tolerant of our mistakes, and gave us all the good gifts he really, truly wants to give us; placed us back in Paradise; well, if we were really, truly as we are today, we'd turn it into Hell.

So, genocide is justified by this?

The wrath of God burns hot against us, and it burns for a reason; we are his creations, who have turned against him and worshiped idols

Well, that should have been expected when he didn't give any proof of his existance. Did he not see this coming?

blasphemed against him,

Oh the horror; I said something against him.
Has God got a really thin skin, or something, that he can't stand a few insults?

ignored his commandments and teachings;

Yeah, because not wearing a cotton-polyester shirt sure sounds like a sensible rule to me.

even His chosen people, Israel, again and again turned against him.

Not too surprising when you look through all the insanity in Leviticus.

God is angry--justly, rightfully angry.

Why? Because people decided to have fun?

But because God also loves us, because his love for us is past all imagining; instead of simply destroying us all,

You mean again? He already destroyed us all before.

Instead, He gave us his Only Begotten Son, that through Him we might be saved.

So....all the people who lived before Jesus are screwed?

And yes, Jesus is in the Bible associated with God; He is God, just as much as the Father; very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; if you want, I can explain this doctrine further, but its really not that complicated.

So...God puts a curse on humanity, then sends down himself, to sacrafice himself to himself, to cconvince himself to remove the curse that he himself put on humanity in the first place.
You really don't see the problem here?

But when Jesus was Crucified, instead of it being a defeat, it became a victory; Jesus took on, on Himself, all the penalties, all the righteous judgement, that we deserved. He took on the very wrath of God upon himself; and he bore it, so that he might pay the price for the sins of all those who believed in him and kept his commandments.

Uh, he took his own wrath on himself? Not that difficult...

But even now, even when he has borne the price for our sin, there are still some who reject him; who blaspheme against him, who refuse to be saved; and what can God do, in the end, after offering them every chance of repenting, every chance of being saved, but simply give up on them, to give them at last the punishment they have bought for themselves; to give themselves over to the full consequences of their sin.

Well hey God; here's a crazy idea for you: why don't you prove you exist? That way people may be more inclined to listen to you.

But I'm not going to continue to take this kind of crap.

What 'kind of crap'? You mean quoting directly from your own holy book?

So its a bit long...you understand, don't you?

Yeah. I understand perfectly.

Also, do you now agree with me, due to the quotes I posted, that the Bible is a completely pathetic source of morals?

[Graham Kennedy]

My question in all this is, assuming god does indeed exist, what right does he have to give humans laws to live by and then judge them?

I cannot think of one good reason why I should obey god.

[Sionnach Glic]

Damn, why didn't we think of that, Teaos?

Also, that's a very good question. Should we listen to him because he's supposedly the creator? Should we listen to him because he'll burn for all eternity if you don't?

[Teaos]

The stupid thing is God just has to show himself to us once and he will have the whole world on their knees worshiping him.

Come down throw down a few mountains freeze over a few lakes smite some rapist down with lighting and no one will doubt him.

But no... he shows himself through grilled cheese and wood patterns.

[Captain Peabody]

Its good to see my post is getting plenty of responses...

First of all, as for the quotes you used, Rochey, I have absolutely no problem with almost all of them, including all from the New Testament...and while some of them from the Old Testament may sound a bit over the top (especially the baby-smashing ones...), most of the ones you quoted were allegorical, and didn't really mean that people should smash babies.

You said that the church no longer follows the old rules. Which in and of its self is odd sine it seems to change with public opinion.

Yes, I've explained all that; and no, it doesn't change with public opinion; and that was almost 2000 years ago that the rules were changed, and there hasn't been much changes since then...

Justify that please. Do your honor your mother and father all the time? Do I? No.

No, I do not; but I should. But because of original sin (which you don't believe in), because I am corrupted, I am constantly breaking the just laws that God has set for me.

Please justifie a few of those quotes from the NEW testament that Rochey got. After all they are what we are supposed to live by.

What; you mean like this one?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword. [what ever happend to happy hippy Jesus?]

I agree with it one hundred percent; and I wouldn't hesitate to quote to disprove the idea of, as Rochey calls it, the 'happy, hippy, Jesus,' which I can't stand. But other than that, I really can't see anything wrong with it. The same is true for all your other New Testament quotes; in fact, most of them I was already familiar with... But whatever...again, it all comes down to the issue of judgement.

You dont need a higher power to love you. Love your self. After that evrything else will come.

Whee boy...now that would be a pretty messed-up world. Do you know how much Hitler loved himself? He loved himself so much he was willing to kill millions of people in order to purify the world. Lots of people love themselves, and I can tell you, the results aren't very pretty. This is the exact opposite of what the world today needs.

How HOW does god help drug addicts? You brought that point up to show that if you love someone you dont sit back and let them self destruct. But that is exactly what god has done.

My point was that God has given us freedom; if he wanted to, he could simply correct each one of our sins as we made it; but what kind of world would that be? And after offering us every chance to free ourselves, at some point he's going to simply give up on us. Like I said before: "There are only two kinds of people in the end; those who say to God, thy will be done; and those to whom God says, in the end; thy will be done."

I'll respond to Rochey and Graham's posts in a few minutes...

[Teaos]

Yes, I've explained all that; and no, it doesn't change with public opinion; and that was almost 2000 years ago that the rules were changed, and there hasn't been much changes since then...

Slavery. A pretty damn big one. The church openly supported slavery and even tried to silence those who wanted it stopped. They only shanged their view when the public at large turned against it.

Did they change because they suddenly realised it was wrong? No they did it because it was no longer popular with the public and they couldnt be seen supporting something amoral.

The whole thing about changing mass from latin to english or what ever? Did they do that since it was gods will? No they did it for more popularity.

No, I do not; but I should.

Why should you honor your perents all the time? Respect is earned not given. Again what if your Dad is a Hitler wannabe.

Whee boy...now that would be a pretty messed-up world. Do you know how much Hitler loved himself? He loved himself so much he was willing to kill millions of people in order to purify the world. Lots of people love themselves, and I can tell you, the results aren't very pretty. This is the exact opposite of what the world today needs.

God loves all his children. So by that logic God loved Hitler, Hitler knew this so killed 6 million Jews. Its false logic to think like that.

My point was that God has given us freedom; if he wanted to, he could simply correct each one of our sins as we made it; but what kind of world would that be? And after offering us every chance to free ourselves, at some point he's going to simply give up on us.

What chance did he give to the kid in Africa born with HIV? Or to the baby born addicted to crack?

If there is a God looking at all the evidence in the world today it would seem he hates us.

[Captain Peabody]

Okay, now on to the others:

Nope. I've stated from the very beginning of my invlovement in this debate that my problem is with people claiming the Bible is a good source of morals. Which I have just proved it is clearly not.

No; what you've just proved is how messed-up your idea of morals really is.

So...he agrees with Hitler? Becuase those guys sound like they'd get on great together.

Seriously, but; what's up with all the Hitler references in this post? Because its kind of hard to have a debate when your opponent is shouting "Hitler! Hitler!" at the top of his lungs. I do not understand what this statement is supposed to mean, or where you got that idea...and I don't really care. We have more important things to discuss anyway.

No, if he was good he'd halp us. Not release plagues on us.

He is helping us... he's helping us to learn how to rely on him, to become more mature in our faith, to learn to deal with pain and sorrow. 'Help,' for the last time, does not mean just letting someone jump off a cliff; it means saving him, even if that means you have to trip him up or knock him down to do it.

Well, that should have been expected when he didn't give any proof of his existance. Did he not see this coming?

Well, for 33 years He walked around in Galilee, talking and preaching; then died and was resurrected again; I think that constitutes showing himself to the world. But whatever.

Why? Because people decided to have fun?

No; the problem is not that we love fun and pleasure too much; the problem is that we don't love it enough. God is offering us eternal, unceasing happiness and pleasure; but we're too busy pottering around making mudpies to take him up on it. God wants us to be happy; but we're supremely determined to make ourselves miserable.

So....all the people who lived before Jesus are screwed?

No; Christian doctrine teaches that everyone who was saved, even those who were saved before Christ's death, are saved through him. So just because you came before him, doesn't necessarily mean you're damned.

So...God puts a curse on humanity, then sends down himself, to sacrafice himself to himself, to cconvince himself to remove the curse that he himself put on humanity in the first place.

Exactly; that's the Christian story of Christ's life and death, in a nutshell. Bravo. But let me explain it to you a bit; in Christianity, we believe that there are three Persons in God; The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; each is fully and truly God, and they are united together by their love for one another (in other words, God is love). So yes, the Son came down to earth, and sacrificed Himself to the Father; and what is more, he even cried out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" All because he loved us.

Well hey God; here's a crazy idea for you: why don't you prove you exist? That way people may be more inclined to listen to you.

Well, they already do know he exists; deep, deep down in their hearts, everyone really knows...but they are suppressing this knowledge, and have turned away from him. But if you and God want to get into a dare contest...I think I know who'd win.

My question in all this is, assuming god does indeed exist, what right does he have to give humans laws to live by and then judge them?

Good to see ya in the forums, oh Grand Exalted...er, Webmaster. I'll try to answer your question as best as I can; basically, its because he created us. For example, what if you'd created a robot to serve you, but that robot instead ignored every one of your orders, smashed himself up, and started wrecking your house...I think you'd feel pretty justified in just deactivating it then and there. But we're not automatons; we're amazing creatures, made in the very Imaged of God; and so God has valued us enought to sacrifice his Only Begotten Son for us, creatures he would be perfectly justified in just giving up on altogether.
But the main reason that God has given us rules is not for his benefit, but for ours; that is how we were designed to live, our 'operating manual,' if you will, and we've basically ignored every part of it except for the nice pretty red print on the front; we've looked at a few words, said, 'oh, that sounds hard,' and gone back to our Gameboys. And we never can be truly happy until we follow his rules (not including the Levitical laws, of course; so don't bother pulling up another half-dozen quotes about stoning your brothers-in-law or whatever). Does that help?

Come down throw down a few mountains freeze over a few lakes smite some rapist down with lighting and no one will doubt him.

He has! He 'came down' as you suggested, healed thousands, brought a man back from the dead, and then resurrected himself from the dead...and people still didn't believe in him. If we were too thickheaded to accept that, why should he bother to do it again?

[Captain Peabody]

Slavery. A pretty damn big one. The church openly supported slavery and even tried to silence those who wanted it stopped. They only shanged their view when the public at large turned against it.

What? Slavery was a moral issue, on which the Church (I believe) never issued a binding statement on; so yes, some Christians kept slaves, but so did Deists, Atheists, and everyone else. And Christians were some of the first to turn against slavery, and helped to create the underground railroad. This isn't even a reversal of Church policy; its just a change in the general opinion of churchgoers.

Why should you honor your perents all the time? Respect is earned not given. Again what if your Dad is a Hitler wannabe.

No its not. I am called upon to give respect to my father, because he is my father. He absolutely does not have to 'earn' my respect; he has it. Now, he can abuse that respect, and make me cease to respect him, but he absolutely does not have to earn it. That is God's law.

God loves all his children. So by that logic God loved Hitler, Hitler knew this so killed 6 million Jews. Its false logic to think like that.

Wait; so are you saying that God didn't love Hitler, or that he did? I don't really understand this...

[Sionnach Glic]

First of all, as for the quotes you used, Rochey, I have absolutely no problem with almost all of them, including all from the New Testament

No problems? What about Jesus endorsing the murder of children who swear at their parents? Do you agree with that?

Yes, I've explained all that; and no, it doesn't change with public opinion; and that was almost 2000 years ago that the rules were changed, and there hasn't been much changes since then...

Yes, there was. They changed the language. They changed indulgences. They go rid of the whole 'Kill the unbeliever!' bit. Heck, a few months ago they got rid of Limbo.
They're changing the rules ever few months.

No, I do not; but I should.

Why? What if, like Teaos said, they were complete scum?

What; you mean like this one?

I think he was reffering to the more violent ones I posted.

My point was that God has given us freedom; if he wanted to, he could simply correct each one of our sins as we made it; but what kind of world would that be?

Quite a pleasant one.

And after offering us every chance to free ourselves, at some point he's going to simply give up on us.

What chance has he given us within the last thousand years?

No; what you've just proved is how messed-up your idea of morals really is.

What's messed up with them?

Seriously, but; what's up with all the Hitler references in this post? Because its kind of hard to have a debate when your opponent is shouting "Hitler! Hitler!" at the top of his lungs.

I've made a grand total of two mentions of Hitler in this entire debate. And I was comparing the fact that they both seem to be genocidal maniacs, just one has a bigger stick to hit humanity with.

he's helping us to learn how to rely on him,

Why do we need to rely on him?

'Help,' for the last time, does not mean just letting someone jump off a cliff; it means saving him, even if that means you have to trip him up or knock him down to do it.

No, in God's case he's tieing us up and throwing us over the edge of the cliff.

Well, for 33 years He walked around in Galilee, talking and preaching; then died and was resurrected again; I think that constitutes showing himself to the world. But whatever.

I meant in the modern day.

No; the problem is not that we love fun and pleasure too much; the problem is that we don't love it enough. God is offering us eternal, unceasing happiness and pleasure; but we're too busy pottering around making mudpies to take him up on it.

And we deserve to be punished for that?

No; Christian doctrine teaches that everyone who was saved, even those who were saved before Christ's death, are saved through him.

How?

Exactly; that's the Christian story of Christ's life and death, in a nutshell.

And....you don't see the paradox in that at all?

Well, they already do know he exists; deep, deep down in their hearts, everyone really knows...but they are suppressing this knowledge, and have turned away from him.

Trust me. I can state with one hundred percent certainty that I do not believe in his existance.

But if you and God want to get into a dare contest...I think I know who'd win.

Okay then.

Yo! Hey, God! Over here! I dare you to hit me with a lightning bolt! Come on! Smite me down with all of your smitefull smiteyness!

I'll try to answer your question as best as I can; basically, its because he created us.

How does that justify following his crazy rules and orders?

not including the Levitical laws, of course; so don't bother pulling up another half-dozen quotes about stoning your brothers-in-law or whatever).

Er, you do realise that about 3/4 of the quotes I supplied earlier are from the New Testament? Not to mention Levitical laws seem to be endorsed by Jesus.

He has! He 'came down' as you suggested, healed thousands, brought a man back from the dead, and then resurrected himself from the dead...and people still didn't believe in him.

Of course not. It's been two thousand years!

What? Slavery was a moral issue, on which the Church (I believe) never issued a binding statement on; so yes, some Christians kept slaves, but so did Deists, Atheists, and everyone else.

Actualy, the church didn't have any problem with people taking slaves. They never said anything against it at all. There are also a few passages in the Bible inffering that black people are inferior.

And Christians were some of the first to turn against slavery, and helped to create the underground railroad.

That would be a bit hard to avoid, when you consider that christianity was one of the worlds dominant religions.

I am called upon to give respect to my father, because he is my father.

Why?

He absolutely does not have to 'earn' my respect; he has it.

Why?

Now, he can abuse that respect, and make me cease to respect him, but he absolutely does not have to earn it.

Why?

Wait; so are you saying that God didn't love Hitler, or that he did? I don't really understand this...

I think Teaos was pointing out that, by that logic, God endorsed Hitlers slaughter.