Fed ground combat again

[Sionnach Glic]

Right, that instead.

[stitch626]

If you'll notice, my posts go back till the beginning of this thread.

[Sionnach Glic]

Right, conceded. Point is, his point is fucking stupid.

[stitch626]

Which one, the one about the knights and the unequipped soldiers or that in Trek times space superiority is more important than ground superiority.

[Sionnach Glic]

Whatever the hell it is he's arguing.

[Tsukiyumi]

Which one, the one about the knights and the unequipped soldiers or that in Trek times space superiority is more important than ground superiority.

In current times, it could be argued that naval and air superiority are more important than superiority on the ground. Mainly by denying the enemy the ability to bring the fight to you, and limiting their ability to move openly. That doesn't mean ground combat is not still immensely important if you want to do more than blow the enemy to smithereens.

[stitch626]

Ok, I'm not arguing his point, I was just asking.

[Tsukiyumi]

Ok, I'm not arguing his point, I was just asking.

Yeah, I know. I was responding to his point again.

[stitch626]

Oh.

[Captain Seafort]

The entirety of your (plural) argument can be summarized as follows: "Our experience and reading of history up to April 21st 2009 indicates that competency in ground combat is vital to success in warfare, we expect this will remain true over the next several centuries". To which I have postulated several reasons why that may no longer be true in the 24th century Star Trek universe.

This may be what you were referring to.
And I would say that a "competent" bunch of troops is not vital to success in war. It is a very important part, but wars can be won without complete competence (though not without huge amounts of casualties).
However, this says nothing about taking control of a planet. Just warfare in general.

Re-read that quote. He's stating that the basic fact of warfare, the necessity to control the ground, may have been rendered obsolete by space power. Various people have been claiming that for the last ninety years, and it hasn't happened yet.

Perhaps they considered that for whoever controls the space around a planet that any ground force, however well equipped, are sitting ducks, and came to the conclusion (based on their extensive expertise and experience) that their best chance of victory in war comes from maximizing their space power.

Still hasn't said that troops were useless. Only said that space is more important than troops.

"Sitting ducks" was how he described ground troops. Despite the prolonged resistance of the 11th Order, and the fighting on AR-558 lasting for months.

There is some canon evidence to suggest that the Cardassians had the type of ground forces most of this forum would recommend (I think that Garek one mentioned that he was a Gul in the mechanized infantry--which while a lie would at least suggest that the person he was speaking to found it credible that there was such a think as a mechanized infantry in the Cardassian military), yet they were doomed once the Klingons established space superiority. Indeed, I seem to recall some dialogue where Gul Dukat became enraged when Weyoun wouldn't send ships to defend the planet. He realized that the entire military on the ground was SOL once the Klingons controlled the space around the planet.

Still hasn't said that ground troops are useless.

He does, however, brush aside the fact that the Cardassians, despite their complete lack of any space support, held out for a considerable length of time, giving the Dominion breathing room. Room they would not have had were it not for the quality of the Cardassian soldiers and their equipment.

And how much ground combat have we seen, relative to space combat? It seems reasonable to say that 99% of warfare takes place in spaces or with spaceships. From a strictly cannon perspective it is unreasonable to assign such a large importance to ground operations in the Trek Universe.

Again, ground isn't obsolete, just less important than space.

He's stating (without any support whatsoever) that 99% of warfare takes place in space. Ignoring the island-hopping nature of Trek strategy and, as I've already mentioned, the prolonged campaigns against the Chin'toka system and the 11th Order.

[stitch626]

He's stating (without any support whatsoever) that 99% of warfare takes place in space. Ignoring the island-hopping nature of Trek strategy and, as I've already mentioned, the prolonged campaigns against the Chin'toka system and the 11th Order.

The Dominion war itself was most likely only a fraction of a percentage of battles fought in Trek.
And other than the Dominion War, none of the other conflicts (feel free to correct me if I forgot one or two) had any ground combat.


As for the other points, I guess that could be one way of seeing what he said. So I won't argue them.

[Captain Seafort]

The Dominion war itself was most likely only a fraction of a percentage of battles fought in Trek.
And other than the Dominion War, none of the other conflicts (feel free to correct me if I forgot one or two) had any ground combat.

"The Defector" and "Chain of Command" both referred to the island-hopping nature of strategy, and ground combat was either seen or mentioned with regards to the Fed-Klingon War (Ajilon Prime) and the Fed-Cardassian War (Setlik III). Plus, of course, the Bajoran Occupation. It wasn't a fleet that forced the Cardassian withdrawal from Bajor - it was the resistance making it too costly to be worth their while.

[Mikey]

The Cardassian War involved examples of infantry combat. Presumably, the Son'a encountered quite a bit to have integrated the lower-caste races into their society; the Remans were described as being used as assault or shock troops; etc.

[stitch626]

Ok, thank you both for correcting me.

[Praeothmin]

Also in Insurrection, when Picard decided to protect the Ba'Ku, he actually organised resistance on the planet, without any "orbital" support from the E-E, and, until the "transporter taggers" came along, he was doing pretty good.

So once again, it is shown that ground combat is an integral part of conflicts, even in ST...