Augments

[Praeothmin]

Even very intelligent people will make mistakes in judgement when acting out of pure emotion, and Khan was nothing if not emotional when facing Kirk in TwoK.
Don't forget his "superhuman intellect" had been bested before by Kirk, who then marooned them, and caused the loss of Khan's wife.
A lot of people have been driven to (near) madness and act in unrecognizable ways when love, or scorn, are concerned.


As for the "Z-axis" issue, if you've never been in a Starship battle before, and you've just begun to learn all the basics of Starship operations, it is quite possible that you will not be able to keep track of everything, "superhuman intellect" or not...

[Monroe]

I think we had the whole Z axis argument before. A guy who is not an experienced naval commander, whose entire command has been messed up, who has been goaded by Kirk and whose (possible) son has been killed is not going to make the smartest tactical decisions.

And Khan showed considerable intelligence both in Space Seed and TWOK. He took over Enterprise in Space Seed and was only defeated by the woman whose loyalties wavered. He conquered Reliant and came close to wiping out Enterprise, and later stole Genesis.

And let us not forget that Khan's superior intellect allowed his people to survive for some fifteen years in amazingly hostile conditions.

I wouldn't say learning that a creature can make people extremely easy to control and coming up with a plan to install spies to allow you to take over a ship is something that only a genius could think of. It seems very cliche.
The z-axis thing doesn't really bother me honestly. I thought it was believable that he didn't think of it. But I didn't see anything that showed his superior intellect.

[katefan]

I wouldn't say learning that a creature can make people extremely easy to control and coming up with a plan to install spies to allow you to take over a ship is something that only a genius could think of. It seems very cliche.
The z-axis thing doesn't really bother me honestly. I thought it was believable that he didn't think of it. But I didn't see anything that showed his superior intellect.

I am not sure where the cliche comes in; using mind control worms is not something I have normally seen in science fiction or fantasy. However, considering his people learned how to master many starship elements show his and his people's superior intellect. I certainly do not think most people of that era are going to be able to give themselves a crash course in starship operations.

Setting aside his accomplishments on Earth, he took over Enterprise. During TOS' time that was an accomplishment (as opposed to TNG where all it takes is two cloaked ships and a bunch of Ferengi).

He kept his people alive for fifteen years on Ceti Alpha V.

He blindsided Kirk twice, first with Reliant and second when he stole Genesis.

Khan is smart and strong but he is not perfect and it is his flaws that make him more interesting that other villains.

[Sionnach Glic]

Agreed. Khan isn't perfect, despite his blustering. He's an amateur when it comes to space combat, and was still basing his plans on the 2 dimensional realm of ground combat, which was where all his experience lay. That he failed to realise the significance of the Z-axis is neither surprising nor uncharacteristic.

[Mark]

You know, Kirk didn't think of it either till Spock pointed it out.

Spock "He's highly intelligent, but inexperienced. His pattern demonstrates two dimensional thinking." (maybe he'll take the hint)

Kirk (lightbulb coming on) "Z - 10000 meters"

[katefan]

Excellent point about Kirk! It is quite possible that the Z axis is not normally a factor as a ship can always orient itself to face front against an opponent. But in an environment where you can bushwhack a blind opponent the z-axis suddenly becomes a factor.

Heck, Riker uses the Z-axis attack because he can ambush the Klingons in All Good Things, a maneuver impossible without the use of the cloaking device.

[Teaos]

I dislike the idea that people say he was unused to space battles so didnt think 3D.

Firstly he was a genius, not really smart, a genius.

Second space battles are similar to sub battles and air battles in the sense they both have a Z axis.

For someone who almost took over the world I would expect him to know something about tactics.

Thirdly, he knew a bit about space, space flight was obviously around when he was froozen and sent away. Also he did have a few days to pick it up.

Forgeting about the Z axis is at least as stupid as Janeway not knowing what a timer is.

[katefan]

I dislike the idea that people say he was unused to space battles so didnt think 3D.

Firstly he was a genius, not really smart, a genius.

Second space battles are similar to sub battles and air battles in the sense they both have a Z axis.

For someone who almost took over the world I would expect him to know something about tactics.

Thirdly, he knew a bit about space, space flight was obviously around when he was froozen and sent away. Also he did have a few days to pick it up.

Forgeting about the Z axis is at least as stupid as Janeway not knowing what a timer is.

1) Yes, he is a genius. A mentally unstable genius obsessed with killing Kirk. He is not in full posession of his faculties, otherwise he would not have flown Reliant into a tactically unwise situation. That alone shows that his emotions get the better of his common sense.

2) Space battles are not like sub or air battles in that there is no issue of gravity to worry about, at least not in most cases. You can easily reorient to face an opponent if you know he is coming.

3) Knowing about space and being an experience space tactician are two different things. We do not know a whole lot about the Eugenics Wars in regards to space so all we know is everything that happened happened on Earth.

4) Khan was upset, blind, flying around in a heavily wounded ship with all but his entire crew lying dead around him, the man who imprisoned him on Ceti Alpha V flying around out there, mocking him, laughing at him, constantly thwarting him. I don't care how smart he is, he is in no condition to think straight.

5) Khan may suffer from gross over confidence. He was defeated on Earth, and he got his ass handed to him by Kirk with a length of pipe. The guy is a genius, but he is not infallable.

[Mikey]

Excellent points by Katefan, and let me add in response to this:

For someone who almost took over the world I would expect him to know something about tactics.

He didn't work his way up through military ranks to come into a command position. He was "born" into it. We can assume he knew a great deal about strategy, but there is no reason to so assume that he had the same mastery of individual-unit tactics.

[Sionnach Glic]

Firstly he was a genius, not really smart, a genius.

So's Stephen Hawking. Would he know how to win a submarine battle?
Being a genius is all well and good, provided you're in a situation where your genius applies. Khan's military genius would have been ground based.

Second space battles are similar to sub battles and air battles in the sense they both have a Z axis.

Correct in some ways. In space you don't have to worry about gravity, or stalling if you go too slow or if you climb too steeply.

Thirdly, he knew a bit about space, space flight was obviously around when he was froozen and sent away. Also he did have a few days to pick it up.

And how does that translate into him having a good tactical knowledge of space combat?
Submarines are obviously around now. Does that mean a general from the US Marine Corps could beat a seasoned sub captain in a sub battle, even with a few days to practice?

For someone who almost took over the world I would expect him to know something about tactics.

Taking over the world is about strategy. Tactics does not necessarily come into that; that's for the lower ranks to worry about. And, again, space combat does not necessarily come into that matter.

[Mikey]

Better example: I'm fairly intelligent, and heavier-than-air flight has been around for a good long time now. Would you expect me to even know how to fly a plane proficiently, much less take one into a dogfight with a fair chance of success?

[Mark]

Khan is a genius, but lacks a complete, daily working knowledge of Starship operations.

Khan: "Where's the override? The override?" (looking at a blank panal)

We cant expect him to know everything about Starship combat. After all, he didn't think to use Enterprise's prefix code to completely disable the ship (he could have deactivated the computer, life support, the warp core, or all of the above.)

BUT

Kirk did some fairly dumb shit too. It NEVER occured to him that in any other situation a Federation Starship could pose a direct danger to Enterprise? Even after the M-5 debacle? He was even warned by Saavik, but his ego was too big. It wasn't until he got his ass handed to him by Khan that he became willing to take suggestions. Had Spock not made his observation about 2-dimensional thinking, Kirk was content to do the same thing, playing cat and mouse with Khan.

[Sionnach Glic]

Aye, Khan's ignorance of basic space tactics can be excused, since he presumably wasn't trained in such matters.
Kirk, on the other hand, has no such excuse.

Perhaps Kirk assumed that Khan did have a good knowledge of space combat, and thus would have reacted to any use of the z-axis, rendering its use irrelevant? I don't know, it's the only excuse I can think of.

[Mikey]

But not an applicable one in this case. Even if Khan had the tactical experience to use all three dimensions, he wouldn't have been able to react to the E's maneuvers, as neither one could pick up the other on sensors.

[Teaos]

So's Stephen Hawking. Would he know how to win a submarine battle?
Being a genius is all well and good, provided you're in a situation where your genius applies. Khan's military genius would have been ground based.

Achually I would be suprised if you could find a human alive who knows more about 3 dimensional space than Stephen Hawking...

So yeah, I'd expect him to... you know, think of the Z axis.

But thats hardly the point, Khan had slightly more experience with war than Hawking.

Correct in some ways. In space you don't have to worry about gravity, or stalling if you go too slow or if you climb too steeply.

The air battle, sub battle comparison was just to show that we use the Z axis a lot now a days and someone over looking it is space is retarded, pure and simple.

And how does that translate into him having a good tactical knowledge of space combat?
Submarines are obviously around now. Does that mean a general from the US Marine Corps could beat a seasoned sub captain in a sub battle, even with a few days to practice?

Beat? Probably not, to look up and down? Yeah I would expect that.



Katefan got it right, he was going slightly mad at this stage, that is his excuse. And a damn good one considering all that happened to him.

Doesnt stop it being fucking stupid.

Infact I put it right in the same league as having your ship ripped across the universe, having the majority of your crew killed, absorbing former enemies into your crew so that it can function, and forgetting about a timer.