Storm Front(s)

[Graham Kennedy]

You should of course remember that the US had troops in other place then just England right? Or is England as far as your globe reaches?

Okay then, just where are you going to stage this invasion of mainland Europe from?

You don't get it; he's saying they could stage the invasion of Europe directly from America.

Add in the fact that the Pacific War would still be eating up a lot of resources and manpower for the US, and I seriously begin to doubt the viability of a European invasion. And that's assuming that Hitler doesn't give the Japanese a few nukes to help out against the US.

I was just thinking that exact thing. Just sent a big invasion effort against an island? Whups, the Japanese just nuked it.

And imagine nuclear armed kamikazes diving into the middle of US fleets.

I'm sure that with time the US could eventualy win out in such a war due to their greater industrial strength, but it'd involve the US troops wading through a sea of blood to get to Berlin. And just how long will the public support such a war if it involves places like New York getting leveled to a single bomb?

If America fought on against the scenario I'm talking about, it would be an absolute bloodbath for them. Losses in the tens of millions, easily. Their only real advantage is the one we've been talking about - that Germany just doesn't have the manpower of material to invade America. I doubt they could even hold it after an unconditional surrender.

The most likely scenario I can imagine is America withdraws from the war against Germany after it becomes clear that their mainland is vulnerable. One scenario would be that the Germans offer a deal - America declares Europe lost and signs a ceasefire with Germany, agreeing quietly to cede control of Europe, Russia and North Africa to them. Germany in return agrees not to arm the Japanese with nuclear weapons. The US saves face and remains in existence without millions of lives lost, and the loss of Europe is sweetened a bit when they defeat Japan. The Germans get a peace to consolidate their new Empire.

A few years later the Americans develop nuclear weapons of their own and a cold war between the two begins. How that would go is anyone's guess - the German Empire would rival the US in size, population, and resources. Much would depend on whatever further help the aliens might supply.

[Sionnach Glic]

You don't get it; he's saying they could stage the invasion of Europe directly from America.

Hmm. It'd be doable, I guess. But frought with difficulties.

And just where would you land first?
Land in France ala D-Day, you'll have German aircraft and ships based in Britain and Ireland attacking your forces and convoys. Stick a few V-2 sites in southern England and you could cause a lot of problems.
Land in Britain and you'll have aircraft and ships based on both mainland Europe and Ireland hitting you. Again, problems.

The most logical course of action in such a scenarior would be to invade Ireland, then move to Britain, then consolodate your forces and launch an assault on Europe itself. With no Eastern Front to keep the Germans occupied elsewhere, they can simply pour even more troops into Normandy and the British Isles than the US faced in reality.
The mere conquest of the British Isles alone would be rather bloody, particularly if the Nazis decide to stick a nuke in London, Belfast and other major cities and set them off as soon as the US rolls enough troops in. And then the US would have to engage in both Nothern Africa and Normandy completely unsupported, and already suffering from heavy casualties against a far larger force than they encountered in reality.

If the US does somehow manage to pull off a victory, it'd far surpass the historic WW2 in terms of loss of life.

I was just thinking that exact thing. Just sent a big invasion effort against an island? Whups, the Japanese just nuked it.

And imagine nuclear armed kamikazes diving into the middle of US fleets.

I'm not sure about that, myself. Nukes back then would be hard enough to build. IIRC, the US only had four built by the end of the war. I can see only a handful of nukes being actualy dropped, with the threat of them being the far greater weapon.

Of course, if the future-aliens supply the bombs and not just the plans, then this is a moot point and the Nazis are free to lob as many nukes as they like around.

If America fought on against the scenario I'm talking about, it would be an absolute bloodbath for them. Losses in the tens of millions, easily. Their only real advantage is the one we've been talking about - that Germany just doesn't have the manpower of material to invade America. I doubt they could even hold it after an unconditional surrender.

The most likely scenario I can imagine is America withdraws from the war against Germany after it becomes clear that their mainland is vulnerable. One scenario would be that the Germans offer a deal - America declares Europe lost and signs a ceasefire with Germany, agreeing quietly to cede control of Europe, Russia and North Africa to them. Germany in return agrees not to arm the Japanese with nuclear weapons. The US saves face and remains in existence without millions of lives lost, and the loss of Europe is sweetened a bit when they defeat Japan. The Germans get a peace to consolidate their new Empire.

A few years later the Americans develop nuclear weapons of their own and a cold war between the two begins. How that would go is anyone's guess - the German Empire would rival the US in size, population, and resources. Much would depend on whatever further help the aliens might supply.

Aye, I could see that.

I think it all depends on when the aliens start supplying the bombs. That fact would dictate how the entire war would go.

[Captain Seafort]

Hmm. It'd be doable, I guess.

Not a chance. A cross-ocean invasion of Europe in WW2 simply wasn't achieveable:

1) No preparation of the target.

D-Day followed two years of aerial bombardment of Germany, drawing forces away from the fronts to man the air defences (about an Army Group's worth), and whittling down the Luftwaffe in air-to-air combat as they were scrambled to engage the 8th Air Force's bombers. On top of that there was a massive bombardment of northern France, aimed both at destroying the coastal defences and formations, and crippling key sections of the French railway network to isolate the beachead. This could not have been done without large numbers of long-range heavy bombers, over a long period of time. Carrier task forces didn't have the types of aircraft, the numbers of aircraft, or the endurance to conduct such an operation.

2) Inability to support a large enough force once landed

Getting ashore was the easy bit. Once that had been done, follow-up forces and suuplies had also to be landed. On D-Day this was initially achieved over the beaches using Mulberry harbours, but this was only possible due to the extremely short distance between the UK and Normandy. To do so across an ocean would have been impossible. Moreover, the Mulberries were only a stop-gap until a major port could be captured, to allow suplies to be brought ashore in large quantities, and PLUTO (PipeLine Under The Ocean) could be built to supply the fuel needs of the armies. This, likewise, depended on the stocks built up in the UK over the previous year, and depended on simply hauling them a short distance across the Channel (PLUTO even more so).

3) No suitable landing site

This is the real killer. Normandy was chosen for the invasion because it was the only suitable target for a large-scale amphibious assault. Brittany and the west coast of France were too rocky, lacking the sloping beaches necessary for both landing craft and over the beach supply. North of the Seinne estury the beaches are too exposed, and storms such as that a fortnight after the landings would devastate a force on the beaches. North of the Straights of Dover the Dutch coastline is too complicated to allow a straight run at the shore, and inland the combination of low-lying ground and lots of waterways is a defender's paridise. North of that is too far from Britain to mount a sucessful assault and support it, and again runs into the problem of being too exposed (plus it's a lot closer to the heart of Germany, with much stronger air defences, and the main naval bases, like Wilhelmshaven and Heligoland.

Trying to land elsewhere and work your way in wouldn't work either. North Africa is a no-go, since Torch only worked, even against a somewhat apathetic French defence, because there was air support available from Gibraltar, half the force came from the UK, and Monty and the Eighth Army was holding the Germans' attention further east. The west coasts of Ireland and Scotland resemble Brittany, and would be unassailable for the same reason.

[/dissertation]

[Sionnach Glic]

Conceded completely.

[thelordharry]

You must be great fun at parties, Cap

[Captain Seafort]

Maybe not parties, but I'm in great demand for pub quizes.

[Deepcrush]

Even if the Germans managed to land on the East Coast. How the hell did they make it over the Appalachian Mountains? We're still working on the damned roads through western Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia. Tennesse and Kentucky are about as well built now as they were 400 years ago (minus the cities cut out between the trees). Armored Units would have hell crossing Marylands eastern shore. Virginia is a death trap of soft soil pockets and half the state is covered by mountain. The Carolinas are marshlands even in the dry season.

[Captain Seafort]

None of which would ever have been of any concern to the Germans - what's inland of the beaches is irrelevant if you're incapable of even crossing the Atlantic.

[Sionnach Glic]

Deep: No one here has suggested the Nazis could ever have invaded the US.

[Deepcrush]

In "Storm Fronts" the germans took over the USA. So I'm just reaching out there with the question of "BIGFUCKING what if?"

[Tsukiyumi]

In "Storm Fronts" the germans took over the USA. So I'm just reaching out there with the question of "BIGFUCKING what if?"

Right. The question is "how"?

Does anyone have any ideas?





I have one. Transporters. If you can build transporters in the mid 22nd century, they can't be that difficult to create. Let's say the Na'kuhl built a few dozen transporters for the Nazis - that would be enough to sabotage a number of key American projects through guerrilla actions (terrorism OMG!), and covertly (slowly) send thousands of troops across without anyone noticing.

If you're scoffing at the transporter idea, remember that these yahoos built a time travel device with 1940's tech, and Spock built some sort of temporal wikipedia in "City on the Edge of Forever".

[Deepcrush]

Even then you'd have a lot of trouble over taking the whole of the US. The only way would be for a frontal assault on the mainland itself. I'll repost the question from earlier.

Even if the Germans managed to land on the East Coast. How the hell did they make it over the Appalachian Mountains? We're still working on the damned roads through western Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia. Tennesse and Kentucky are about as well built now as they were 400 years ago (minus the cities cut out between the trees). Armored Units would have hell crossing Marylands eastern shore. Virginia is a death trap of soft soil pockets and half the state is covered by mountain. The Carolinas are marshlands even in the dry season.

[Sionnach Glic]

Massive transporter arrays that could move whole companies at a time would be of massive help. I'd say a few regiments suddenly appearing without warning around Washington would cause some seirous problems. I'm still iffy about whether or not this would still allow them to pull it off, due to the lack of manpower available, but it'd definitely allieviate the problems of landing in the US.

[Mikey]

Agreed. They might be able to use transporters to take some bits of territory - but short of super-accelerated cloning, the Germans didn't have the manpower to keep any.

Deep - we're not ignoring you; there's just no argument against it. There really wouldn't be a way for an invading army to cross the Trail.

[Deepcrush]

I see your point about transporters. But, in ENT the Germans did do it. I just can't figure out for the life of me how!

Deep - we're not ignoring you; there's just no argument against it. There really wouldn't be a way for an invading army to cross the Trail.

I never thought that you were ignoring me. I thought I stumped you guys. Which it seems I have!