Excelsior Class Discussion

[Deepcrush]

Hey, I saw the Watchmen emote and I just had to use it.

[stitch626]

Yeah, I was tempted too, just could figure out what to use it with.

[Deepcrush]

You shouldn't have wasted time worrying about a reason.

[Lazar]

Scotty was lying and/or wrong or...

Based on what quote, exactly? Let me remind you again that Scotty described the Romulan ship's power source as being "simple impulse" - i.e. equivalent to a Federation impulse drive. He did not say anything along the lines of "they have fusion and we don't".

The fact is that we have absolutely no indication that the impulse reactors of the TOS era were different from those of other eras. As I said in my previous post, a fusion rocket would produce plasma, so I don't understand why references to plasma exhaust, which are perfectly consistent with fusion, would be evidence for some kind of distinct "plasma drive" that is not fusion based and has never been mentioned or defined anywhere.

[Deepcrush]

Based on what quote, exactly? Let me remind you again that Scotty described the Romulan ship's power source as being "simple impulse" - i.e. equivalent to a Federation impulse drive. He did not say anything along the lines of "they have fusion and we don't".

You're on the wrong ep about the wrong topic bud. No one is questioning that an Impulse engine works the way an Impulse engine works. You're thinking Balance of Terror with the Romulan BoP. We're talking about M/AM vs Fusion which Scotty pointed out to a younger race that their fusion reactors aren't as powerful as SF's Impulse drives.

The fact is that we have absolutely no indication that the impulse reactors of the TOS era were different from those of other eras. As I said in my previous post, a fusion rocket would produce plasma, so I don't understand why references to plasma exhaust, which are perfectly consistent with fusion, would be evidence for some kind of distinct "plasma drive" that is not fusion based and has never been mentioned or defined anywhere.

Wrong, we have Scotty saying so. That counts as canon and is there for absolute that TOS considers fusion different then M/AM.

[Deepcrush]

Ok, ships in ENT used fusion reactors for secondary power.
Ships in TNG+ used fusion reactors for secondary power.
So it is logical that Ships in TOS would also use fusion reactors for secondary power.

When did you edit this???

First off no. It means that the source of secondary power has changed with the times.

With what your saying, I could validly argue that the U.S.S. Excelsior never had a CMO simply because he/she was never seen or mentioned.

Again no. This would just make you stupid as EVERY SHIP is stated to have a CMO. Why? Because the CMO is the senior medical officer if no official CMO is assigned, there for every ship has a CMO.

[Deepcrush]

Sorry about this. I didn't notice this post before so forgive anything that seems a little out of order.

What the hell is a plasma drive? A fusion rocket would produce plasma.

Spock said that the ships expend fuel in the form of plasma. No mention of fusion reactor. TOS (Doomsday Machine) states that ships run off of a limited amount of fuel. As to what is a Plasma Engine/Drive/Reactor... I'd guess its something that runs off of plasma.

You mean the remark in BoT?

No, not BoT.

He never explicitly mentioned fusion, but he said that the Romulan ship's power was "simple impulse". The most plausible interpretation being that the Romulans had a power generator which was equivalent to a Federation impulse drive

So your evidence is impulse means fusion even when they say fusion is different? NO.

(which is pretty universally assumed to be fusion).

What you assume in your universe and what is spoken in canon are two very different things here.

[Mikey]

Again, let me reiterate that "plasma drive" doesn't reference the type of power generation, merely the exhaust used to produce thrust. A plasma drive could as easily be used with a fusion source as it could with a "plasma" source (probably more so, since plasma requires a lot of energy to create and sustain.)

Secondly, Scotty stated in "Relics" that the principles (if not the details) of TNG impulse drive are consistent with those of TOS impulse drive. That would include the basic method of power generation, even if it didn't include the type of thrust-producing exhaust.

[stitch626]

Thank you Mikey for clarifying my point. Apparently drive=/=power source wasn't clear enough, but you put it very nicely.

And Deep, you're right, who needs reason.

[Sionnach Glic]

You know, you could just put the emoticon in your sigs, if you can't think of anywhere to use it.

[stitch626]

Yeah I could.

[Lazar]

Spock said that the ships expend fuel in the form of plasma. No mention of fusion reactor.

BUT A FUSION ROCKET WOULD PRODUCE PLASMA! Do you understand that? Spock doesn't explicitly say that they have a fusion reactor, but his statement provides absolutely no evidence that they don't have a fusion reactor. So let me ask you again, and please answer this time: How does a statement that they produce plasma exhaust, which is perfectly consistent with a fusion rocket, serve as evidence that they don't have a fusion reactor, and that they have some thing called a "plasma drive" which absolutely does not involve fusion, and which has never been mentioned or defined anywhere?

Or to put it another way, you have absolutely ZERO evidence that they used anything other than fusion reactors in the TOS era, or that TOS era impulse reactors were different from those of other eras. Yes, they never explicitly mentioned fusion, but they sure as hell never mentioned any "plasma drive".

TOS (Doomsday Machine) states that ships run off of a limited amount of fuel.

A fusion reactor runs off a limited amount of fuel (deuterium and tritium). What are you trying to argue here?

As to what is a Plasma Engine/Drive/Reactor... I'd guess its something that runs off of plasma.

I'd guess it's something that you pulled out of your ass, because it's never been mentioned or defined anywhere.

No, not BoT.

Okay, then what is this Scotty quote that you're talking about where he mentioned fusion?

So your evidence is impulse means fusion even when they say fusion is different? NO.

When did he say that fusion was different from impulse?

What you assume in your universe and what is spoken in canon are two very different things here.

No, I don't think they ever explicitly mentioned that they had fusion in TOS, but they mentioned it in other eras, and we have absolutely no evidence that the TOS reactors were any different. In fact, we have the statement of Geordi in "Relics" that impulse technology hadn't changed much since Scotty's time. Which goes against your hare-brained idea that they switched from magical non-fusion based "plasma drives" to actual fusion reactors between TOS and TNG.

[stitch626]

Both of you fail to realize that fusion and impulse are two completely different things.
Fusion reactors are a source of power.
Impulse drives are a source of propulsion.

And yes, plasma would be a byproduct of a fusion reaction, hence an exaust from the impulse engines of a starship.

IIRC, by the 24th century they had found a way to mask the plasma emissions.

[Lazar]

Both of you fail to realize that fusion and impulse are two completely different things.
Fusion reactors are a source of power.
Impulse drives are a source of propulsion.

I know that: the distinction between "impulse drive" and "fusion reactor" is equivalent to the distinction between "warp drive" and "M/AM reactor". But Deepcrush doesn't seem to understand that, because when Tsuki quite reasonably pointed out:

Impulse drives are powered by fusion reactors, dipshit.

Deepcrush nonsensically responded:

TOS UFP ships use plasma drives (TOS,STVI) and have we've even had Scotty remark about how weak fusion reactors are next to what SF uses(TOS)... DUMBFUCK. Research first, speak second, insult third.

So in Deepcrushland, the existence of plasma exhaust magically means that they must not have fusion reactors. I still don't know what Scotty quote he's talking about, if it's not the one from BoT.

[Deepcrush]

No, I don't think they ever explicitly mentioned that they had fusion in TOS, but they mentioned it in other eras, and we have absolutely no evidence that the TOS reactors were any different. In fact, we have the statement of Geordi in "Relics" that impulse technology hadn't changed much since Scotty's time. Which goes against your hare-brained idea that they switched from magical non-fusion based "plasma drives" to actual fusion reactors between TOS and TNG.

'Elaan of Troyius'

Lazar, go watch this and you'll see where I'm coming from. Save the insults until you have a point other then "Fusion is here because they said they have impulse".

So in Deepcrushland, the existence of plasma exhaust magically means that they must not have fusion reactors. I still don't know what Scotty quote he's talking about, if it's not the one from BoT.

Wrong fucktard... I said the Impluse drives they use are/were different then that of the fusion tech of the time. Next time you want to throw a "Deepcrushland" line in you might want to use acutal words I said instead of trying to make up what you wished I had said.

Fusion and Impluse are spoken of as two different things in trek. If you don't like that then go join Prea over at the kiddy table for pout time. Or go find a qoute from trek that says Fusion and Impulse are one in the same even if they speak of them differently. Those are your choices. If you find anything worth more then your tears, feel free to let me know.