Quality vs Quantity

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:06 pm

Concession accepted til acknowledgement of 1000 TW figure.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:35 pm

Thorin wrote:Concession accepted til acknowledgement of 1000 TW figure.

A figure of 1000 TW was never stated in any episode of Voyager.

The one you're thinking of was "five million gigawatts" - the circumstances being an exclamation by Harry Kim because Seven was about to grab hold of the conduit in question. Given the preponderance of low-TW figures that I've been demonstrating since last week, and the fact that Harry was in something of a panic at the time, it's hardly inconceivable that he misspoke. You repeatedly take character dialogue as infallible - most noticeably with Data's 12.75 billion gigawatt comment, and stating it as absolute canon, rather than a statement by a fallible character.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:29 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Thorin wrote:Concession accepted til acknowledgement of 1000 TW figure.
A figure of 1000 TW was never stated in any episode of Voyager.

The one you're thinking of was "five million gigawatts" - the circumstances being an exclamation by Harry Kim because Seven was about to grab hold of the conduit in question. Given the preponderance of low-TW figures that I've been demonstrating since last week, and the fact that Harry was in something of a panic at the time, it's hardly inconceivable that he misspoke. You repeatedly take character dialogue as infallible - most noticeably with Data's 12.75 billion gigawatt comment, and stating it as absolute canon, rather than a statement by a fallible character.

Oh sorry, I meant 5000 terawatts. Thanks for pointing that out.
I don't take it is absolute cannon if there's something contrary to it, but there isn't.

You've described various shield impacts, phaser powers, etc etc. Nothing regarding power of the warpcore. I've gave two no doubt ones.

So; cannon, hard numbers with no contrary evidence regarding power from the warpcore

Plasma has energies in the range of 1 TW - 1000 TW after coming out the warpcore
A Galaxy Class warpcore can produce 12,750,000 TW
A random conduit on Voyager has 5000 TW running through it
Voyager provided 5 TW [that is additional to what was already going there] to it's sensor array to increase long range resolution

Also note worth, that 400 GJ that took down the E-D shields - it must have some unknown effects. Whether you like it or not, "Enterprise" is cannon, and the maximum output of Enterprise's phase cannons is 500 GJ. If this fires over one second (which is quite reasonable), then that is 500 GW. If you are trying to say that one shot from Enterprise's phase cannons can bring down the shields of a flagship from 200 years in it's future... Well, you know the rest.

Of course, nothing is certain. That is the world of Star Trek. We must go by what is more reasonable. Is it more reasonable that the most advanced warp cores capable of thousand(s) of times the speed of light can only generate power about 100 times that of a modern power station, using matter/anti-matter annhiliation? Are you trying to tell me that about 100 of the world's current best power stations could warp space-time and travel above the speed of light?

Also, it means little, but worthy to note - the TNG technical manual backups everything I say.

Bryan Moore · Post by **Bryan Moore** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:37 pm

Sorta on subject: Star Wars universe. Often quantity over quality as far as the Empire was concerned, but whats the biggest captial ship battle we see in the extended universe?

Post by **Mikey** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:19 am

Oh look, here's Bryan Moore... *receives slap back into reality*

Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a big EU buff. That said, barring the Death Stars, I thought it was the Eye of Palpatine.

Captain Peabody · Post by **Captain Peabody** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:54 am

Sorta on subject: Star Wars universe. Often quantity over quality as far as the Empire was concerned, but whats the biggest captial ship battle we see in the extended universe?

Well, the biggest we've seen in canon is the battle that begins Episode III; I forget where I heard this, but according to the production crew, there were supposed to be literally thousands of ships involved. Return of the Jedi is the second biggest; the Empire there had somewhere in the range of 20-50 (Wookieepedia says 50, but that seems a bit much to me) Star Destroyers, and probably hundreds upon hundreds of TIEs; and, while the Rebel fleet numbers are slightly more nebulous, they should probably be in the same range. But again, these ships are big; Star Destroyers are a mile long each.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:36 am

Captain Peabody wrote:
Well, the biggest we've seen in canon is the battle that begins Episode III; I forget where I heard this, but according to the production crew, there were supposed to be literally thousands of ships involved. Return of the Jedi is the second biggest; the Empire there had somewhere in the range of 20-50 (Wookieepedia says 50, but that seems a bit much to me) Star Destroyers, and probably hundreds upon hundreds of TIEs; and, while the Rebel fleet numbers are slightly more nebulous, they should probably be in the same range. But again, these ships are big; Star Destroyers are a mile long each.

The ROTJ novelisation (which slots into the canon just behind the movie and the radio play) states that the Rebel fleet stretched beyond the point of human vision.

Post by **Teaos** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:45 am

Well how far away can you see a Star destroyer in space then?

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:34 am

The calcs done here give a distance of about 7.6 km looking at the ship from directly astern, and a bit a of rejigging gives about 12km for a broadside view. Not that far, on a cosmic scale. A better method might be to look at the shot of the Falcon flying towards the Sanctuary Moon after the destruction of the Death Star and counting the blobs.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:59 pm

I nthe St vs SW story on this site the Emipre brought, what, 15,000 Star Destroyers to the Sol System...?

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:19 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:The calcs done here give a distance of about 7.6 km looking at the ship from directly astern, and a bit a of rejigging gives about 12km for a broadside view. Not that far, on a cosmic scale. A better method might be to look at the shot of the Falcon flying towards the Sanctuary Moon after the destruction of the Death Star and counting the blobs.

That link says 7,600 kilometres, not metres. And that's int including various lights on. Just the object.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:29 pm

Thorin wrote:
Captain Seafort wrote:The calcs done here give a distance of about 7.6 km looking at the ship from directly astern, and a bit a of rejigging gives about 12km for a broadside view. Not that far, on a cosmic scale. A better method might be to look at the shot of the Falcon flying towards the Sanctuary Moon after the destruction of the Death Star and counting the blobs.
That link says 7,600 kilometres, not metres. And that's int including various lights on. Just the object.

My apologies, it does indeed. That's what comes of not proofreading your posts properly. Nonetheless, even thousands of kilometres are insignificant on a cosmic scale, and I reiterate that a better way to judge the size of the Rebel fleet would be to count ships at the end of the battle, and add in a reasonable number to compensate for losses.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Sorta on subject: Star Wars universe. Often quantity over quality as far as the Empire was concerned,

I'll have to disagree with you there.
Granted, the Empire did seem to take this philosophy with regards to its fighters. But their warships were nothing to laugh at; heavily armed and armoured with incredible power. The numbers were merely a product of its incredible industrial base (one million worlds, minimum-ANH).

but whats the biggest captial ship battle we see in the extended universe?

I'd assume the Battle of Coruscant, in the civil war.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Rochey wrote:I'd assume the Battle of Coruscant, in the civil war.

Which one? Clone Wars, 1st Vuuzhan Vong or 2nd Yuuzhan Vong? All three were major engagements.

As for the "quantity over quality" argument, I'd say that it holds up. The mainstay of the Imperial fleet is the ISD - a jack-of-all-trades if ever there was one. It isn't intended to be a top-of-the-line warship, it's intended as a COIN base, with decent firepower, starfighters, and a good-sized stormtrooper detatchment. It isn't all that strong, given that one was disabled by a black-market ion cannon (TESB), and they can be pinned down by three low-scale heavy cruisers (Dark Force Rising). There are, however, tens of thousands of them minimum, and it's those numbers that are the Empire's first line of defence against the Rebellion.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:58 pm

Which one? Clone Wars, 1st Vuuzhan Vong or 2nd Yuuzhan Vong? All three were major engagements.

Was there not one when the rebels took Coruscant from the Imperials? Although maybe not, my knowledge of the EU is far from encyclopedic. But I find it hard to imagine the galactic capital falling without a fight.

As for the "quantity over quality" argument, I'd say that it holds up.

Hmm, you're right there. I guess I was thinking more of its abilities (slagging a planet in an hour), but that's more a product of the technology than the ship.