YOU are involved in the events of INS

[Duskofdead]

And as has been pointed out time after time the Ba'ku are not being harmed and are being transported without even their knowledge to another world as similar to their own as could be found. In return, billions of people benefit from improved medical technology. For someone who's repeatedly complained about the Feds taking a far too touchy-feely approach to galactic politics I find your attitude somewhat strange.

I'm sure the Borg would benefit from the material and organic resources they'd receive by assimilating the Federation. Does that alone give them the right to do it?

[Sionnach Glic]

We were talking about the UFP and if it broke the law. Which it does.

It breaks our laws regarding the subject. As has been brought up already in this thread, we've no idea what UFP law says on the subject.

I'm sure the Borg would benefit from the material and organic resources they'd receive by assimilating the Federation. Does that alone give them the right to do it?

That's in no way analogous since the UFP isn't trying to kill them and even went through massive expendature to move them with as little disturbance to them as possible, assimilation effectively would kill them.

[Duskofdead]

That's in no way analogous since the UFP isn't trying to kill them and even went through massive expendature to move them with as little disturbance to them as possible, assimilation effectively would kill them.

The Borg certainly don't see assimilation as killing. They see it as a gift--- doing lesser races a favor. Ignoring the free will and rights of another sentient race in order to accomplish something they view as a win-win situation for all involved.

How is that logic any different from what you propose? It's just from another culture's perspective.

[Captain Seafort]

The Borg certainly don't see assimilation as killing. They see it as a gift--- doing lesser races a favor. Ignoring the free will and rights of another sentient race in order to accomplish something they view as a win-win situation for all involved.

How is that logic any different from what you propose? It's just from another culture's perspective.

False analogy - we never said anything about perspectives when it came to the harm done, but were speaking purely objectively. The Borg example demonstrably does harm to it's victims (Picard's nightmares and subsequent mental and emotional trauma when confronted with the Borg).

[Duskofdead]

The Borg certainly don't see assimilation as killing. They see it as a gift--- doing lesser races a favor. Ignoring the free will and rights of another sentient race in order to accomplish something they view as a win-win situation for all involved.

How is that logic any different from what you propose? It's just from another culture's perspective.

False analogy - we never said anything about perspectives when it came to the harm done, but were speaking purely objectively. The Borg example demonstrably does harm to it's victims (Picard's nightmares and subsequent mental and emotional trauma when confronted with the Borg).

More than nightmares and emotional trauma can and has resulted from the nonconsensual removal of people from their land. The analogy is not false at all. You are just misinformed that both are not extremely destructive acts towards a society.

I haven't watched the movie in a few years... but wouldn't the Baku have kind of "fallen apart" like the Sona if they had been gone from the planet long enough?

[Captain Seafort]

More than nightmares and emotional trauma can and has resulted from the nonconsensual removal of people from their land. The analogy is not false at all. You are just misinformed that both are not extremely destructive acts towards a society.

Name one such removal that hasn't been accompanied by torture, murder and malnutrition. Simply moving people is not harmful - it's all the abuses that frequently go with such movings that cause the problems

I haven't watched the movie in a few years... but wouldn't the Baku have kind of "fallen apart" like the Sona if they had been gone from the planet long enough?

Given that the Son'a had been away from the planet for the best part of a century I very much doubt it - the Son'a were falling apart from extreme old age, not withdrawal simptoms.

[Sionnach Glic]

As has already been stated, the UFP has the technology to teraform a planet to make it functionaly identical to Ba'ku, and can ship them supplies of the particle, or whatever it was. This wouldn't be like what happened to the native Americans; the UFP has shown it wants to keep them alive, and had already undertaken massive expenses and effort to go through with it peacefully and with no harm to the Ba'ku (well, other than a severe case of what-the-fuckitus when they wake up after being moved.

[Duskofdead]

Removal from land nonconsensually has cultural and psychological effects which are just as destructive as any abuses in the actual removal process itself. Particularly in the case of spiritual or animistic societies removed in our own history, a people's entire cosmological sense of existence and purpose can be destroyed overnight by a forced move. This leads to generational problems which go far beyond "one of the soldiers was rude to me" or "my great-great grandmother got raped."

Besides, the entire argument is that the ends justify the means. Even if the Baku "never found out" what had happened, this argument is still basically "it's not a crime unless you get caught."

If the Klingons did this to a Federation colony and the colonists were none the wiser, would you argue this was a moral/legal act? Would the Federation view it as such?

[Sionnach Glic]

Besides, the entire argument is that the ends justify the means. Even if the Baku "never found out" what had happened, this argument is still basically "it's not a crime unless you get caught."

No, the argument is "the lives of trillions outweigh the desires of 600".

If the Klingons did this to a Federation colony and the colonists were none the wiser, would you argue this was a moral/legal act? Would the Federation view it as such?

If by moving them they could mine something that could save trillions of lives, yes, it would be a moraly fine act.
The UFP would undoubtedly throw a shitfit over it, but they're hardly the pinacle of morality either.

[Aaron]

No, the argument is "the lives of trillions outweigh the desires of 600".

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

If by moving them they could mine something that could save trillions of lives, yes, it would be a moraly fine act.
The UFP would undoubtedly throw a shitfit over it, but they're hardly the pinacle of morality either.

Wouldn't the Baku have descended into inbreeding and what not in a few generations anyways? There where only 600 of them and we saw what, 6 or 7 children?

[Sionnach Glic]

Technicaly, if they were very careful, 600 people would be about enough diversity in the genepool to keep the race going alright.

As for the Spock quote, exactly. Except it's not the needs of the few, it's the desires of the few.