YOU are involved in the events of INS

[Captain Seafort]

The latter came bloody close - Picard deliberately chose to let the Boraalans die, despite having the ability to relocate them with no knowledge of the trip (as the rest of the episode showed) and then had the gall to "honour the lives we cannot save". He gave Nikolai a bollocking for erecting a shield to protect the Boraalans, despite the fact that it was arranged so they'd have no knowledge of it. The entire episode portrayed the Federation as an organisation that considered extinction preferable to "cultural contamination", and given that fact I see no reason why they'd see a PT barrage as anything other than regrettable, but less harmful to the species than continuing with knowledge of extraterrestrials (prior to the revelation that they were a bunch of Luddite squatters).

[Aaron]

No and in fact I said jack and s**t about it's legality. I'm saying they have the means and obviously the will to do it, remember that saying "better to beg forgiveness then ask permission"?

Just to expand on this. At the end of INS the relocation is placed on hold, pending a review. That suggests to me that there was some loophole in Federation law and after the review it's entirely possible that the Feds are going to come back and move them anyways.

[Graham Kennedy]

So because the Bak'u are helpless to challenge it, then it becomes legal?

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

No and in fact I said jack and s**t about it's legality. I'm saying they have the means and obviously the will to do it, remember that saying "better to beg forgiveness then ask permission"?

The legality or otherwise is what I've been talking about all along. It goes without saying that the Federation has the ability to do whatever the hell they like on many occasions, including this one. But they typically don't for legal reasons. "better beg forgiveness" wasn't used in Code of Honor, Mirror Mirror, Friday's Child, and who knows how many other episodes where force would have solved the problem in an instant.

[Aaron]

So because the Bak'u are helpless to challenge it, then it becomes legal?

They would be equally helpless to challenge it if the Federation simply used a photon torpedo to destroy the village. Is that therefore legal as well?

No and in fact I said jack and s**t about it's legality. I'm saying they have the means and obviously the will to do it, remember that saying "better to beg forgiveness then ask permission"?

The legality or otherwise is what I've been talking about all along. It goes without saying that the Federation has the ability to do whatever the hell they like on many occasions, including this one. But they typically don't for legal reasons. "better beg forgiveness" wasn't used in Code of Honor, Mirror Mirror, Friday's Child, and who knows how many other episodes where force would have solved the problem in an instant.

You'll find that I expanded a bit in the post above yours.

[Coalition]

Colonize the planet around them with medical and scientific facilities to research the ring radiation, and treat people who arrive. There are only 600 of them, they haven't changed in several hundred years, and their genetic purity (everyone there had the same skin color) means as far as I am concerned, they are a dead end species.

Set up sociological observation posts around them to watch their society (and to help alert if Federation activities on the rest of the planet start to disturb them), and let them inbreed over the centuries.

I'll have to set up no-fly zones around their colony and in the space above it, but it won't be a problem compared to the medical benefits (excellent admirals getting longer lifespans, philosophers, negotiators, etc).

[Aaron]

Colonize the planet around them with medical and scientific facilities to research the ring radiation, and treat people who arrive. There are only 600 of them, they haven't changed in several hundred years, and their genetic purity (everyone there had the same skin color) means as far as I am concerned, they are a dead end species.

Set up sociological observation posts around them to watch their society (and to help alert if Federation activities on the rest of the planet start to disturb them), and let them inbreed over the centuries.

I'll have to set up no-fly zones around their colony and in the space above it, but it won't be a problem compared to the medical benefits (excellent admirals getting longer lifespans, philosophers, negotiators, etc).

You suddenly reminded me of OEEG, there are 600 of them on a whole planet. Setup what's required on the other side and they'll never konw your there. I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

[USSEnterprise]

My knowledge of INS is a hazy, but I think I remember most of it.

Personally, I would mine the planet. As for legality, the UFP seems to only acknowledge space faring civilizations as living beings. After all, we have seen them knowing let millions die when the could easily stop the event. So if we are looking at this from what we have seen, they could think that they have the right to claim the planet in their name. If I were Starfleet, I would worry about how an previously unknown (I think) force could go toe to toe with their best battleship. (Cause lets face it, the E-E is the closest thing they have to a battleship.)

[Sionnach Glic]

You suddenly reminded me of OEEG, there are 600 of them on a whole planet. Setup what's required on the other side and they'll never konw your there. I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

Indeed. It seems the writers didn't grasp just how freaking big a planet is.

[Sonic Glitch]

I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

Simpsons reference?

[Aaron]

I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

Simpsons reference?

An unintentional I assure you.

[Sonic Glitch]

I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

Simpsons reference?

An unintentional I assure you.

Do you know which simpson reference i am referencing?

[Aaron]

Do you know which simpson reference i am referencing?

Who shot Mr. Burns.

[Sonic Glitch]

Do you know which simpson reference i am referencing?

Who shot Mr. Burns.

Indeed.

[Graham Kennedy]

Colonize the planet around them with medical and scientific facilities to research the ring radiation, and treat people who arrive. There are only 600 of them, they haven't changed in several hundred years, and their genetic purity (everyone there had the same skin color) means as far as I am concerned, they are a dead end species.

Set up sociological observation posts around them to watch their society (and to help alert if Federation activities on the rest of the planet start to disturb them), and let them inbreed over the centuries.

I'll have to set up no-fly zones around their colony and in the space above it, but it won't be a problem compared to the medical benefits (excellent admirals getting longer lifespans, philosophers, negotiators, etc).

You suddenly reminded me of OEEG, there are 600 of them on a whole planet. Setup what's required on the other side and they'll never konw your there. I realise that removes the cartoonish super-villany of the Son'a but the whole movie was full of either holes or stupidity anyways.

They did suggest that in the movie (and so did I and others earlier in this thread), but Dougherty claimed that the Son'a were so far gone that it would take decades of exposure at normal levels to cure them.

He also added "Besides, they don't want to live in the Briar patch - who would?"

Which is kind of an interesting point. Presumably they could build top notch facilities on the planet easily enough for people to spend time there, but just how practical is it to have everyone go to the Baku planet? With a trillion plus Federation population, having everyone spend even a year in a lifetime there would involve shipping hundreds of millions a year to the planet and back. And once there they're cut off from contact with the outside.

Would it even be doable at all, I wonder?

[Mikey]

Those (or rather the "Mirror, Mirror" and Ligon II examples) were what I was using - they had the capacity to resist the Feds, and therefore cause casualties on both sides. The Ba'ku did not. The distinct impression I got in these cases were that they were outside UFP space.

GK cleared this up with some canon quotes. However, your reasoning is flawed. The fact that an otherwise wrong action can be executed without casualties doesn't trun it right.

The legality of the Ba'ku relocation is, I believe, something of a side issue, relevant only with regards to Picard's actions. The morality of Dougherty's actions (and immorality of Picard's and the Ba'ku's) is far clearer).

Obviously not, since you've got it backwards.

We've never seen the Federation's actions when confronted with an all but unpopulated planet with massive potential for medical advancement either.

But we HAVE seen other examples of situation in which an eminent domain policy would come into play, and the UFP has never attempted to execute such a policy. In fact, they completely backed off from the situation (e.g., TNG: "Home Soil.")

Given the context of the discussion, Picard was claiming sovereignty.

DOUGHERTY
The Son'a have developed a
procedure to collect the
metaphasic particles form the
planets rings...

PICARD
A planet in Federation space...

DOUGHERTY
Right. We have the planet and
they have the technology -- a
technology we can't duplicate.

He realised that the Son'a didn't have any similar planets of their own to harvest, and so they needed the Feds to allow the use of one of theirs - regardless of the Ba'ku settlement.

Not so. The text reads more like he was trying to remind Dougherty of the distiction which I pointed out.

Dougherty's full statement was "We [the Federation] have the planet, they [the Son'a] have the technology". He was clearly talking about possesion, especially given the fact that, with the arrival of the E-E, there were far more Federation citizens in the system than Ba'ku.

I'll have to give you that one. However, given the murkiness of Dougherty's legal sense, I don't necessarily take that as gospel. Further, your point about number of citizens of each faction in the system is a complete red herring. If I got the entire population of the great state of New Jersey to visit London, would you agree that London was then a possession of New Jersey? There would be more New jerseyans than English in London at that time, so by you're reasoning it would be absolutely warranted for us to claim sovereignty throughout the city limits.