Sovereign class

[Thorin]

Define: Military

A military or military force (n.) generally refers to a permanent, professional force of soldiers or guerrillas trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare.

Starfleet is not trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare thus is not a military.

Settled with a simple definition

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Define: Military

A military or military force (n.) generally refers to a permanent, professional force of soldiers or guerrillas trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare.

Starfleet is not trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare thus is not a military.

Settled with a simple definition

Yes! We win! If only someone had looked up the definition sooner...

[Sionnach Glic]

Where did you get that definition from?

And, by the definition I posted from a dictionary, Starfleet is a military.

Does it engage in warfare? Yes.
Does it defend Federation ships? Yes.
Does it patrol borders with hostile power? Yes.
Does it engage in operations of a military nature? Yes.
Does it defend Federation planets, and other assets? Yes.
Does it engage the warships of hostile or rival powers? Yes.

The fact that it engages in non-military operations during peacetime is irrelevant. The Irish army does the same, but it is still a military.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Where did you get that definition from?

And, by the definition I posted from a dictionary, Starfleet is a military.

Does it engage in warfare? Yes.
Does it defend Federation ships? Yes.
Does it patrol borders with hostile power? Yes.
Does it engage in operations of a military nature? Yes.
Does it defend Federation planets, and other assets? Yes.
Does it engage the warships of hostile or rival powers? Yes.

The fact that it engages in non-military operations during peacetime is irrelevant. The Irish army does the same, but it is still a military.

Oh for the love of Isis! Give it up. Just because they engage in combat doesn't make them a military. Most of those could be applied to police, boarder patrol, or any number of government or even civilian organizations. And didn't you once say that Ireland was never in a war? So in a way they don't match up with your definition of militaries because they've never engaged a hostile power.

[Sionnach Glic]

Give it up. Just because they engage in combat doesn't make them a military.

Fine then, what do you think makes a military? As you seem to have a different definition of the term to the English language.
And no, the fact that they engage in combat dosen't make them a military alone. It's but one of the reasons.

Most of those could be applied to police, boarder patrol, or any number of government or even civilian organizations.

No, only a few of those examples could be atributed to them.
And isn't the border patrol a military force, anyway?

And didn't you once say that Ireland was never in a war? So in a way they don't match up with your definition of militaries because they've never engaged a hostile power.

If you had actually read my posts, you would see that I never once said that the deciding factor of whether or not they are a military is whether they have engaged in a war.
I refered to Ireland's military because they have never been in a war. The fact that they undertake non-military operations does not stop them being a military. That is why I brought them up.

[Thorin]

And, by the definition I posted from a dictionary, Starfleet is a military.

By the definition I posted, it isn't.

Military as a noun has several meanings - thus whether Starfleet is a military or not is subjective.

The end.

[Sionnach Glic]

1) For the second time, I want to know where that definition is from.
2)As for the definition itself:

generally refers to a permanent,

Check.

professional force

While the term 'profesional' may be giving too much credit to the Glorious Redshirt Corps, check.

of soldiers or guerrillas

Check.

trained exclusively for the purpose of warfare.

Here is where your definition parts with reality. Many military organisations, such as the US coast guard or even the entire Irish Armed Forces, engages in non-military actions, and does not train exclusively for warfare. Ergo, by this logic are you claiming that the Irish army is not, infact, a military?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Well we could say the Irish army wasn't a military and I have suppoting reasons, but I don't feel like being mean.

My definition of a military is an armed force whose primary purpose is to defend their country. That is not Starfleet's primary purpose.

And I was under the impression that boarder patrol was normally more of a police force.

[Thorin]

I looked up the definition on google.

And as I have said, I care little for the Irish military, but the fact is that whoever writes dictionaries are writing the definitions from other dictionaries. These definitions change between them and thus it is, for the noun version, subjective on which one to take.

The most often one I see is "armed forces" of a country/nation/federation. If you were to apply this strictly, then the police in most countries would constitute armed forces.

Hence, the definition cannot be given as fact from any source. Someone writes them, which means you are taking their definition over someone else's based on realistically nothing.

Thus, the definition of the noun military is varied and subject to change, and an answer cannot be reached.

[Teaos]

I'm not sure if I am remembering this right but way back in TOS didn't someone refer to starfleet as having once been called the space probe agency or something like that. Even the name implies non military.

[Mikey]

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers routinely participates in beach erosion projects and similar projects here in New Jersey - does this mean that the U.S. Army is not a military force?

[sunnyside]

Just because you're military doesn't mean you aren't multipurpose. The U.S. Army Core of Engineers is very multipurpose.

[Mikey]

And yet, the term "army" even appears in the name...

[Teaos]

If the army core of engineers were a seperate entity but did the same job I would class them as non military. They would be just like the civilian contactors in Iraq. But since they fall within the normal military it is difficult to give them a seperate name.

[Sionnach Glic]

Well we could say the Irish army wasn't a military and I have suppoting reasons, but I don't feel like being mean

By all means, post them.

My definition of a military is an armed force whose primary purpose is to defend their country. That is not Starfleet's primary purpose.

Actually, it is. Primacy of purpose can easily be determined by priority. Starfleet imediately suspends a lot of scientific and exploratory missions to free up the ships they need for a war. Ergo, we can safely see that defence is at the top of Starfleet's priority.

And I was under the impression that boarder patrol was normally more of a police force.

Several countries patrol their borders with armed soldiers.

I looked up the definition on google.

I did the same just there. I got several pages of military websites, but no dictionary definitions. Odd...

The most often one I see is "armed forces" of a country/nation/federation. If you were to apply this strictly, then the police in most countries would constitute armed forces.

Do the police engage in warfare? Nope.
Do they defend the countries assets? Yes.
Do they patrol borders with hostile countries? Not always.
Do they engage in operations of a military nature? Nope.
Do they engage the militaries of rival or hostile powers? Nope.

So you only have one there, and even that is debateable.
So, no. The police is not a military force, due to the fact they do not undergo military operations.
And anyway, many countries do not have an armed police force.

Hence, the definition cannot be given as fact from any source. Someone writes them, which means you are taking their definition over someone else's based on realistically nothing.

-noun
7. the military,
a. the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.
b. military personnel, esp. commissioned officers, taken collectively: the bar, the press, and the military.

1 relating to or belonging to the armed forces:
foreign military intervention
military targets/forces
military uniform

Main Entry: 2military
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural military also mil·i·tar·ies
Date: 1709
1: military persons; especially : army officers
2: armed forces

Noun
the military
(with the) Armed forces in general, including the Marine Corps.(US English meaning only)
It's not the job of the military to make policy.

noun (plural mil·i·tar·y or mil·i·tar·ies)
Definition:
armed forces or its high-ranking officers: the armed forces or high-ranking members of the armed forces
attempts by the military to influence government policy

There. Five different dictionary definitions agree with me. I'd say evidence is firmly on my side, even using the simplified definition.

Thus, the definition of the noun military is varied and subject to change, and an answer cannot be reached.

How odd then, that five different dicitonaries, chosen completely at random, all say the same thing. Not so subjective now, is it?

I'm not sure if I am remembering this right but way back in TOS didn't someone refer to starfleet as having once been called the space probe agency or something like that. Even the name implies non military.

So? Names are completely irrelevant. The US could change the name of its army to The Pink Panther Fanclub. That dosen't mean they aren't a military.

Just because you're military doesn't mean you aren't multipurpose.

Exactly, the fact that they undergo civilian operations during peacetime is comlpetely irrelevant, and does not preclude them from being a military.