Galaxy Class Capability

[Captain Seafort]

600metres per second? That is 0,8 % Impulse speed if we accept the 25% speed of light for full impulse.

The important bit is bolded - the key word is IF.

Why should we accept that figure? Quite apart from the fact that acceleration, not absolute speed, would be the critical factor in space combat, why should a number that's never appeared in canon Star Trek be allowed to overrule the speeds we see on screen?

I mean where should we draw the line when what we see and what we hear does not match? If for example the captain orders half impulse ahead out of space dock and what we see onscreen is a ship moving roughly with 200km/h? Maybe we should treat such scenes just for what they are, eyecandy and not references for what exactly happened?

Or we stick to canon and WYSIWYG. If we hear someone order (or state) a given fraction of impulse, and the see the ship accelerating at a calculable rate, then that rate is that fraction of impulse.

[Coalition]

I've always figured the Scimitar to be a Dominion design that Shinzon stole. The Remans were used in shock assaults, leading to heavy casualties, and Shinzon was one of their commanders. He gets to a Dominion shipyard in the Alpha Quadrant where the Scimitar is being built for the Cardassians, and sees the ship. His Remans kill the Jem'Hadar, he steals the mostly-complete ship, and gets away in it, after transferring all technical files to the Scimitar and destroying the shipyard.

For the next several years, he slowly but surely refits the ship, adding Romulan anti-shipping weaponry. He'll need a decent support structure, a few friends in the Romulan fleet who provide supplies/intelligence (maybe he saved their lives, or otherwise holds a lever over their head), and time. Without the Tal Shiar to spot the actions, he has a much better chance of accomplishing this.

The Scimitar would be one of the ultimate WMD ships, a nearly perfect cloak (though how it vents heat without leaving a giant trail of superheated gasses from its impulse engines behind it), combined with the ability to kill a planet in a matter of minutes (not sure if it could do that while cloaked or not). Add to that substantial conventional weaponry (and the ability to fire while cloaked) and that gives it a nasty commerce and industrial raiding ability.


Chernobyl - it was actually five problems in one:
1) Night shift - far fewer people on-site
2) performing an experiment - aka outside normal operations
3) had to turn off the safeties to perform the experiment - rather obvious
4) unusual cooling rods - the tips of the rods are steel rather thasn carbon, meaning when they are inserted, the reaction rate where the tips are located will actually speed up
5) no concrete roof - even if the disaster had occurred, if the reactor had been inside a concrete bunker (like American reactors were), there would not have been a problem (just one less reactor)


For the Bug going slower that what is called Full Impulse, I'd see it as the Jem'Hadar commander being ordered by the Founders to ram the Odyssey, and he is slowing down to make sure he gets it right the first time.

[Atekimogus]

The important bit is bolded - the key word is IF.

Why should we accept that figure? Quite apart from the fact that acceleration, not absolute speed, would be the critical factor in space combat, why should a number that's never appeared in canon Star Trek be allowed to overrule the speeds we see on screen?

No one can of course force you to accept any number. I for one believe that 25% the speed of light is staggeringly SLOW for full impulse. Just to emphasis, would you credit the most agily ship of the dominion with at least the speed a Saturn V had in the 1970? That would be very roughly 11200metres/second (escape velocity -earth).
Doing this calculation purley on what we see onscreen seems even rougher imho because we are limited to 30frames/second, have no idea what the supposed distance is witout reference point, doing the calculation on how long it takes to travel the own size of the ship seems awkward since the length is afaik only a rough estimate and the ship moves in a slight curve, also the ship doesnt move strictly horizontal or vertical but angular away from the camera meaning it covers much more ground before it catches up with itself etc...now maybe I gave the person who calculated this to less credit but at the end of the day I am sure you can make the same calculation and arrive at a value which is just as good and nevertheless much higher!

If you insist on this really slow ramming speed (roughly mach2) you should ask yourself a few things. Why so slow, there was nothing preventing them from accelerating them to a reasonable lvl. If the energy on impact is really so low due to low speeds why not use conventional weapons instead?

Or maybe the whole sequenze was shot in "slow motion" to give the audience the chance to see what happened to the odyssey? Wouldn't that be more reasonable considering a space battle with high speeds?

[Tsukiyumi]

...Or maybe the whole sequenze was shot in "slow motion" to give the audience the chance to see what happened to the odyssey? Wouldn't that be more reasonable considering a space battle with high speeds?

I quite like that. It still fits with the "documentary footage" concept of suspension of disbelief, and explains why we can see things that should be moving at extremely high speeds.

[Sionnach Glic]

That doesn't really work as an explanation, as no ship in Trek has ever been observed to use the 25% SoL speeds. As such, your explanation would require virtualy ever space scene be shot in slow motion, without any evidence to support such a conclusion.
Falling back on what the "director" or the hypothetical documentary might be doing to mod the footage is only required when some piece of visual evidence contradicts another and cannot be otherwise explained (EG, the way the Defiant seems to be able to change its size at will). In this case there are a few possible explanations. Perhaps the Attack Ship's engines were damaged. Perhaps it had slowed down to perform a tight maneouver in preparation to ram the Odyssey. Perhaps the Odyssey was moving rapidly in reverse. Etc.

[Tsukiyumi]

That doesn't really work as an explanation, as no ship in Trek has ever been observed to use the 25% SoL speeds. As such, your explanation would require virtualy ever space scene be shot in slow motion, without any evidence to support such a conclusion.
Falling back on what the "director" or the hypothetical documentary might be doing to mod the footage is only required when some piece of visual evidence contradicts another and cannot be otherwise explained (EG, the way the Defiant seems to be able to change its size at will). In this case there are a few possible explanations. Perhaps the Attack Ship's engines were damaged. Perhaps it had slowed down to perform a tight maneouver in preparation to ram the Odyssey. Perhaps the Odyssey was moving rapidly in reverse. Etc.

I think it's a pretty neat weay to explain crap like visibly moving beam weapons, and in the case at hand, could explain why the Odyssey was destroyed by what looks like a very slow impact. Actually, it could work on "Cause and Effect" as well. If the "footage" was "filmed" in super high FPS, it could be "slowed down" so that we can see the event, when in reality, the ship was moving a lot faster.

I'm just open to any alternative explanation that makes some sense, here.

[Sionnach Glic]

I think it's a pretty neat weay to explain crap like visibly moving beam weapons

Then that would require every scene involving people firing phasers on the ground be filmed in slow motion, too. Basicaly, this requires humans to actualy be going several times faster than we see them. Obviously, that's not the case.

and in the case at hand, could explain why the Odyssey was destroyed by what looks like a very slow impact.

As I pointed out, there are other possible explanations that all work without falling back on what the "director" was doing. Personaly, I like the idea that the Odyssey was reversing at speed to avoid the Attack Ship. If it were, then that would give the two ships a very slow relative velocity, while still keeping a high actual velocity.

Actually, it could work on "Cause and Effect" as well. If the "footage" was "filmed" in super high FPS, it could be "slowed down" so that we can see the event, when in reality, the ship was moving a lot faster.

Actualy, that still doesn't work for C&E. The problem with C&E was the damage (or, to be more accurate, lack thereof) that the impact caused, not the speed at which it was going. It would have made no difference if it were going ten times faster or ten times slower; the same damage was still caused.

[Tsukiyumi]

Then that would require every scene involving people firing phasers on the ground be filmed in slow motion, too. Basicaly, this requires humans to actualy be going several times faster than we see them. Obviously, that's not the case.

Good point.

and in the case at hand, could explain why the Odyssey was destroyed by what looks like a very slow impact.

As I pointed out, there are other possible explanations that all work without falling back on what the "director" was doing. Personaly, I like the idea that the Odyssey was reversing at speed to avoid the Attack Ship. If it were, then that would give the two ships a very slow relative velocity, while still keeping a high actual velocity.

That is actually a rather good option as well. We have no background frame of reference that shows how fast, if at all, the Odyssey was moving in that scene.

Actually, it could work on "Cause and Effect" as well. If the "footage" was "filmed" in super high FPS, it could be "slowed down" so that we can see the event, when in reality, the ship was moving a lot faster.

Actualy, that still doesn't work for C&E. The problem with C&E was the damage (or, to be more accurate, lack thereof) that the impact caused, not the speed at which it was going. It would have made no difference if it were going ten times faster or ten times slower; the same damage was still caused.

Have to disagree here; if the Bozeman was moving ten times faster in reality, the "glancing blow" would've been much more severe.

[Atekimogus]

Perhaps the Attack Ship's engines were damaged. Perhaps it had slowed down to perform a tight maneouver in preparation to ram the Odyssey. Perhaps the Odyssey was moving rapidly in reverse.

Or the Attack Ship was moving way faster than the calculated value of 600metres/second. This value and how it was calculated is arguable at best imho. I would be interesting to hear from you why you are so sure of this value, since like I argued above there is quite the margin for speeds in both ways without contradicting what we see onscreen.

As I pointed out, there are other possible explanations that all work without falling back on what the "director" was doing. Personaly, I like the idea that the Odyssey was reversing at speed to avoid the Attack Ship. If it were, then that would give the two ships a very slow relative velocity, while still keeping a high actual velocity.

That is actually a good idea. I like it because this gives the crew of the Odyssey at least a bit of credit that they where trying to do something and not just be sitting ducks.

[Reliant121]

I always wondered why the Odyssey just appeared to be there like a weapons platform. Could she not propel forward at high impulse or do a "flash-warp" like in the Picard Maneuver.

[Atekimogus]

Picard Maneuver used as escape tactic is also a nice idea.

Sigh, they really should find more competent bad guys since the one we see are obviously only able to score points because the good guys are even greater morons .

[Captain Seafort]

Or the Attack Ship was moving way faster than the calculated value of 600metres/second. This value and how it was calculated is arguable at best imho. I would be interesting to hear from you why you are so sure of this value, since like I argued above there is quite the margin for speeds in both ways without contradicting what we see onscreen.

True. The margin of error is not, however, large enough to encompass a bug travelling at more than twenty times the calculated speed, which is what would be required to give it 1Mt of KE. Indeed, I'm not entirely sure why we're even discussing the energy of the impact in connection with the Odyssey's destruction, given that it clearly withstood the impact itself quite well - the explosion came several seconds later.

[Atekimogus]

True. The margin of error is not, however, large enough to encompass a bug travelling at more than twenty times the calculated speed, which is what would be required to give it 1Mt of KE.

1Mt of KE is the KE required to destroy the ship? You use it as if it is a border value could you please clarify?

Indeed, I'm not entirely sure why we're even discussing the energy of the impact in connection with the Odyssey's destruction, given that it clearly withstood the impact itself quite well - the explosion came several seconds later.

We were discussing the overall toughness of the galaxy class. I am of the opinion that they are rather tough and that no fed-ship would have survived (or just barley) such a suicide run which led to the whole discussion of the odyssey, weak warp-cores, slow impact speed etc

[Captain Seafort]

1Mt of KE is the KE required to destroy the ship? You use it as if it is a border value could you please clarify?

It's the approximate yield of a single GCS photon torpedo; fears have been expressed on several occasions ("Q Who?" and "The Nth Degree" spring to mind) that the detonation of one of the E-D's own torpedoes at close range could destroy the ship, even while shielded. It isn't a hard-and-fast figure, but it does allow for an approximation.

We were discussing the overall toughness of the galaxy class. I am of the opinion that they are rather tough and that no fed-ship would have survived (or just barley) such a suicide run which led to the whole discussion of the odyssey, weak warp-cores, slow impact speed etc

The Odyssey's physical structure survived the impact, albeit severely damaged. The problem was the location of the impact, which evidently damaged the warp core and associated systems, leading to their catastrophic failure. As Rochey says, it may even have been the chance impact to the nacelle that was the fatal blow. In Timeless Voyager withstood a far more severe impact (the 700,000 ton ship crashed, at a similar speed to that of the bug) without the core blowing up.

[Atekimogus]

It's the approximate yield of a single GCS photon torpedo; fears have been expressed on several occasions ("Q Who?" and "The Nth Degree" spring to mind) that the detonation of one of the E-D's own torpedoes at close range could destroy the ship, even while shielded. It isn't a hard-and-fast figure, but it does allow for an approximation.

Thank you for the explanation. If that is the case it makes me wonder why the dominion did use a ramming tactic in the first place. The whole battle one get the idea that the Odyseey is able to stand her ground but is loosing and retreating but if they could have her destroyed with one good torpedo shoot the dominion also must have suffered greatly to fall back on suicide tactics.
Just a side question: I do not want to sound like a complete newbie but does the dominion has/use torpedoes? When I think about it I cannot remember having seen a dominion ship firing one. The DITL page about the attack ship also doesn't seem to have hard data about this....... .