Sovereign class

[Teaos]

The fact that they drop the exploration angle and come running when there's a war to be fought shows what Starfleet's primary role is. As for the "aren't the attackers" bit, what's that got to do with whether they're a military force or not?

It's not a primary role but if there is an enemy threatning to obliterate you you better throw everything you have at them.

According to DITL stats only 5-30% of internal volume is given to weapons which is bugger all.

The amount of time doing anything remotly military is nothing compared to the time spent on science.

And this thread is massive. 16 pages. It's beat the TR-116 by quite a lot.

[Thorin]

And it would neither matter if civilians were placed on a purpose built science ship or a powerful Galaxy class if they are attacked without warning.

True - however, those purpose-built science ships are not going to be ordered into battle, OR into those otherwise-hazardous scenarios - into which Starfleet vessels are ordered regularly.

In my humble opinion, in the world of Star Trek, the chances of getting attacked unannounced are probably just as small (or large) for a science ship as they are a Galaxy class ship. Devoted science ships probably go into more hazardous situations than semi-devoted science/military ships, as they are studying spatial phenomena - and spatial phenomena, in the world of Trek have always posed a greater risk, and done more damage, than an attacking enemy.

[Mikey]

Exactly - which is why we've seen so often that the ship sent to study those phenomena is a "heavy cruiser" (euphemism for big honking warship) rather than a little Oberth or Nova.

[Minnsky]

Just a quick note, Starfleet does regular tactic testing
http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daybody=/ ... .php?TNG46

[Captain Seafort]

Just a quick note, Starfleet does regular tactic testing
http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daybody=/ ... .php?TNG46

Bad example - in that very episode Picard and Riker complained about the war games, stating that tactics were unimportant and a minor part of a Starship commander's job. More evidence that they're incompetent, given their unwillingness to even acknowledge their primary role.

[Sionnach Glic]

That list could still apply to a mercenary aka security firms as well.

Fine then. Add: Is it operated by the government? Yes.

And why do you guys even have an army? You negotiate with your terrorists.

For protection, for guarding the Irish Sea (yes, we do have a navy), for important police duties (bank vans travel with a military escort over here), and the fact that Ireland has an unfortunate history of violence.
And yes, we do negotiate with terrorists, we try to avoid loss of life when possible. And it mostly worked.

And their ships are far from being heavily armed.

12 phaser arrays, and two torpedo tubes with 250 rounds on a 641M long ship? I'd call that heavily armed.

Relativly speaking of coarse.

Relative to what? They are still well armed for their size.

And if there is a war then you wouldn't have civilians on board so then you have no problem there.

Yeah, because clearly your enemy is going to anounce his intentions to invade beforehand. The fact that there is civilians on them at all is completely stupid, and makes the civilians on them a legitimate military target.

So, just what idiot would let you have a sub, much less a nuke.

The same idiot that made Janeway a captain?
It was an example, showing how stupid it is to assume, despite its armament, that just because a ship is sent to explore somwhere, it dosen't mean it isn't a miliotary vessel.

Military subs usually aren't used for mapping during military operations.

Exactly, that's because modern militaries are smart.

Military ships can be used for civilian purposes, and civilian ships can be used for military purposes. But if a civie ship is used by military personel does that make it a military boat?

If the aforesaid civie ship was armed with military grade weapons and defences, then yes.

And it would neither matter if civilians were placed on a purpose built science ship or a powerful Galaxy class if they are attacked without warning.

Yes, it would. Unless your enemy is on a mission to exterminate you, they are unlikely to destroy civilian vessels. Put civilians on warships, and they are standing on a legitimate military target that the enemy has every right to attack.
Also, civilian ships are unlikely to be sent into combat with the enemy.

It's not a primary role but if there is an enemy threatning to obliterate you you better throw everything you have at them.

Yeah, like your military force you just sent off exploring.

According to DITL stats only 5-30% of internal volume is given to weapons which is bugger all.

So? How much internal volume is taken up by shields, life support, corridors, quarters, engineering, jeffries tubes, shuttle bays, computer cores, seperation systems, and a whole bunch of other things.
Now, how much internal volume do you think science systems take up, after acounting for all of those other systems. I'd be surprised if it was 10%. Let alone 30.

The amount of time doing anything remotly military is nothing compared to the time spent on science.

So? Irish waships spend more time sitting on the river Liffey than doing anything else. Does that mean they're not military vessels?

And this thread is massive. 16 pages. It's beat the TR-116 by quite a lot.

Yeah, it even beat the old Prometheus thread.

the chances of getting attacked unannounced are probably just as small (or large) for a science ship as they are a Galaxy class ship.

Only if the attacker is xenocidal.

Devoted science ships probably go into more hazardous situations than semi-devoted science/military ships, as they are studying spatial phenomena - and spatial phenomena, in the world of Trek have always posed a greater risk, and done more damage, than an attacking enemy.

Well, here we get to the problem of 'Starfleet are idiots'. While its true that civilian ships could also get destroyed by these anomalies (although that would often be avoided by a competant government), at least this way you would not lose important military assets.

[Teaos]

I still think one of the points which you never really replyed to was a few pages ago I pointed out if there was a pure science ship with civilians on board it would still need some sort of weapons for use in studying space bodies and defence. Those weapons makes them a threat to enemies and thus a target. Thus you need to put even better weapons on them. Then you end up with the standard starfleet design.

[Sionnach Glic]

Sorry, I musn't have seen it.

Or, you could simply let them keep at range from anomalies (which is just common sense, when you think about it), or give them an armed escort to protect them.
Or, I suppose it would be acceptable to temporarily station a few scientists on a military vessels if there is a high risk involved, but keeping them on the ship indefinately (let alone family members who aren't even contributing anything) is just ridicoulous.

[Captain Seafort]

I still think one of the points which you never really replyed to was a few pages ago I pointed out if there was a pure science ship with civilians on board it would still need some sort of weapons for use in studying space bodies and defence. Those weapons makes them a threat to enemies and thus a target. Thus you need to put even better weapons on them. Then you end up with the standard starfleet design.

Sure, everything needs shields, but what does it need weapons for. If it's for random space junk just get out of the way. If it's for taking on enemy warships it's a waste of time - either run if you're fast enough or surrender if you're not. While the opponent in question may not have the greatest respect for the Geneva Convention or its interstellar equivalent, they're going to be a sight more irritated if you decide to start shooting at them.

[Teaos]

We have seen weapons used several times when starships are looking at things. It is part of the reserch a lot of the time. You could reason you would need quite a bit of power sometimes to.

[Sionnach Glic]

And just why would you need to start shooting at the spatial anomaly of the week?
If it attacks you, that's what you have engines for; running away.

[Teaos]

You need to blast a planets crust to get something inside or look around. You need to apply energy to some sort of space annomily to see what will happen, I believe we saw this happen in that episode of DS9 where the Defiant was shrunk. There could be many reasons to shoot something.

[Sionnach Glic]

You need to blast a planets crust to get something inside or look around.

So? There's no need for these to be military grade epuipment. And why would you need to blast the crust open? Surely you could just teleport inside?

You need to apply energy to some sort of space annomily to see what will happen,

There are ways of transferring energy without the use of military grade weapons.

I believe we saw this happen in that episode of DS9 where the Defiant was shrunk.

Er, I don't recall that one, so I'll take your word for it.

How the hell did the ship get shrunk?

There could be many reasons to shoot something.

Not with enough force to destroy a ship, there isn't.

[Captain Seafort]

But that's still no reason to arm a ship more heavilly than a typical warship unless it's intended to act as a warship itself. Dedicated science vessels like the Oberth and Nova are specifically reffered to as being less heavilly armed than Galaxies, Nebulas, etc, and we don't see them in fleet actions. If the rest of the fleet had the same primary mission, why are they so much more heavilly armed?

[Teaos]

I'm not saying certain ships are sizably more powerful than other. It's just no matter what kind of ship a civilian is on they are going to be in danger. Having them on a hogher powered ship does not seem to put them in any more danger than a science vessel. That is unless the ship is abused and does absolutly stupid things with out dealing with the civilians first.