Dominion war machine

[Captain Seafort]

So you want me to prove a negative eh? That's not how debate works. I've shown that the combined fleet was around 30k strong as of "When it Rains..." If you want to dispute that then provide evidence. Random handwaving about maybe possibly being an exaggeration is nowhere near sufficient - prove it.

[KuvahMagh]

No one questioned the figure and there was no reason to lie or exagerate. All that will do is mess with their strategy, I can see them rounding up a bit to account for incomplete intelligence but by this point in the War I'm betting the 20 - 1 odds were pretty accurate. Sure its possible they are wrong buts its not likely and we have 0 evidence to suggest such a possibility, therefore I'm with Seafort, the number should be accepted until we have Canon proof otherwise.

[Teaos]

The 30K figure is pretty solid due to the quote Seafort provided. even if it was off by +/- 10% the number is still high.

[Sionnach Glic]

Why should we assume it was hyperbole? Even if the figure wasn't 100% exact, then it's at least going to be a roughly correct estimate of their respective strengths.

[Teaos]

Thats what I'm thinking. Obviouisly it is not going to be exactly 20 Dominion ships for every one Klingon one we can safetly assume it is pretty damn close to that number.

[Sionnach Glic]

Exactly.

[Mikey]

Unless there is evidence that the figure is exaggerated, there is no reason to assume it. Of course, as has been said, it's probably a rounded estimation for the sake of ease in conversation, but there's no reason to expect that it is in inaccurate estimation. If the figure was given by a known liar or exaggerator, then I'd buy it; but it was given by a staid, solid, experienced commander.

[kostmayer]

In Fortune Favors the Bold, I think the Dominion Fleet outnumbered them 2 to 1. Until the Klingons turned up, I'd say the Federation were just about holding their own.

Even if they were outnumbered only 10 to 1, I'd say the Federation would have been buggered.


I wonder how long that battle would have taken if the ships didn't blow up after a few shots, but held together a bit better like in previous series/movies.

[Mikey]

I think that referred to the immediate forces, not the Dom fleet as a whole.

[kostmayer]

Yeah, I'm just saying that in a large fleet battle, with the Federation outnumbered 2 to 1, it was just about an even fight.

If the total Dominion fleet was infact 20 times larger, the Federation would surely have been in serious trouble.

[Mikey]

Can't argue with that.

[Captain Seafort]

The total Dominion fleet wasn't twenty times larger than the allied fleet - that was only in relation to the number of ships the Klingons had available and adjusted to resist the energy dampner at short notice. That number probably increased as more ships made the required adjustments, and would have skyrocketed once the Feds and Romulans were able to develop countermeasures for their ships

Nonetheless, the Klingons were in serious trouble, had to rely on hit-and-run operations to keep the Dominion off balance, and even then probably would have failed if Damar's rebellion hadn't diverted considerable Dominion resources to counterinsurgency operations.

[Graham Kennedy]

Bear in mind that the 1,500 ships wasn't even the bulk of the Klingon fleet - it was only the number the Klingons were able to modify and deploy in something like a day or three. Which is impressive in and of itself, actually.

Just thinking through the numbers here... speculating rampantly.

Dominion + Breen + Cardassian = 30,000

Dominion likely make the majority of this... call it 20,000. So Cardassian probably rate, what, 6,000 and the Breen 4,000?

Federation + Klingons + Romulans have how many, do we guess? 10,000 ships in total?

3:1 odds in the Dominion's favour would likely make the war unwinnable.

But then the Cardassians swapped sides... now it's 24,000 against 16,000. The ratio drops to 1.5:1, which is within the 2:1 ratio that the Feds were barely holding their own against in SoA.

If the allies had 10,000 ships in total, what do we like for the split between them? 5,000 Federation, 3,000 Klingon, 2,000 Romulan? That gives the Cardies more ships than the Federation, though.

In fact... if the Cardassians changing sides made such a big difference to the allies, that implies that they have a force at least approaching that of the whole allied force, doesn't it? Which doesn't really fit in with them being significantly weaker than the Federation. Unless maybe the Dominion hugely boosted Cardassian shipbuilding, and I mean churned out several thousand ships before and during the war. But why would the Dominion fund Cardie shipbuilding rather than more Jem'Hadar stuff?

Just random thoughts...

[Captain Seafort]

Federation + Klingons + Romulans have how many, do we guess? 10,000 ships in total?

3:1 odds in the Dominion's favour would likely make the war unwinnable.

I wouldn't be suprised if the Feds had that many ships on their own, even if the the Klingons and Romulans were substantially weaker.

In BoBW II, Shelby stated that "we should have the fleet back up to strength in less than a year" in reference to the losses from the Borg attack. From "The Drumhead", we know that those losses consisted of 39 ships, so the Feds should be capable of building about 40 ships per year, over and above normal replacement of worn-out hulls. Let's take this to mean a 10% addition to construction, and that the standard life of a starship between major refits is twenty years. This is supported by the TNG tech manual, the fact that a new generation of weapons can come out in that time (per YE) and the E-nil was to be scrapped on the grounds that it was that age (presumably that was the time since the refit, as the ship was actually considerably older). This would allow the Federation to maintain a standing fleet of around 9,000 ships.

[Lt. Staplic]

how, the fed has a standing fleet of 8,000, i believe, plus the klingon, and romulan fleet.
ther's no way 2,600 Dominion ships could take them on and do as well as they did.