TR-116

[Captain Seafort]

I hate to go around saying "there must be a good reason for everything" since that pretty much makes talking about it moot, but maybe Borg can control their shields more or less individually. Suppose a drone is getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a crewman and wants to assimiliate him, the drone would not want to use a KE shield, and instead rely on the idea that Borg tend to be stronger to incapacitate the target. If that is standard procedure, then the times they are beaten in hand-to-hand are when they underestimate their target (Worf or Data)

THere are two problems with that theory.

1) When have we ever seen drones exibit enough independence to wipe their bum, let alone control their own shield settings. Their standard battle tactic is "amble slowly towards the enemy" no attempt to take cover whatsoever. They have no more independenece than your finger.

2)They were fighting species 8472 for months. If it was simply a case of underestimating an opponent, then the first few hundred may have succumbed, but still making the same mistakes months later beggars belief.

[Sionnach Glic]

Suppose a drone is getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a crewman and wants to assimiliate him, the drone would not want to use a KE shield, and instead rely on the idea that Borg tend to be stronger to incapacitate the target.

That still dosen't explain how they got beaten by 8472, they knew they couldn't asimilate them and they weren't stronger than them.

[Captain Seafort]

Rochey, we're going to have to coordinate here. We're giving the same responses to the same posts at the same time.

[Sionnach Glic]

I was just about to say that!

[DBS]

Suppose a drone is getting into a hand-to-hand fight with a crewman and wants to assimiliate him, the drone would not want to use a KE shield, and instead rely on the idea that Borg tend to be stronger to incapacitate the target.

That still dosen't explain how they got beaten by 8472, they knew they couldn't asimilate them and they weren't stronger than them.

But it didn't really stop them from trying.... Then again, that stupid drone was probably not in the best condition. Eventually, though, it does seem that the Borg learned (when they went into survival mode) and stopped trying to assimilate them. Remember that the 8472 boarded THEM, and probably overpowered their shields. After we met the species in the flesh, we don't see the Borg ever even think about going hand-to-hand with them!

[Graham Kennedy]

And 8472 being able to do such in no way means that bullets and such would do the same; that's rather the point of 8472.

Kinetic engergy is kinetic energy, no two ways about it.

Check out the ep that introduces 8472 again.

Bog-standard Borg, fine, the exoskeleton would distribute the impact around the entire body, and handguns would have little to no effect (MGs would be another matter - the muzzel velocity is much higher). The problem with this is 7 of 9. She demonstrated the ability in The Raven to use her personal shields despite being stripped of her exoskeleton. This demonstrates that the implants generating the shields are not part of that exoskeleton.

But the whole point of the Borg is that they can adapt to stuff. So they could easily just redesign the implants.

If we start saying "we don't understand how they work, therefore it must be magic and the laws of physics don't apply" then we might as well give up the entire debate, as we''d have no basis for analysis.

Yes, we do. We look at the actual observed properties of the thing in question and don't make assumptions beyond that. Of course, a lot of the time that stops you from making sweeping generalisations about stuff, but that's no bad thing in my view.

[Captain Seafort]

Check out the ep that introduces 8472 again.

If you disagree with my conclusion please give your own theory as to how being hit by one of 8472's claws is different from being hit by Worf's sword.

But the whole point of the Borg is that they can adapt to stuff. So they could easily just redesign the implants.

Then why didn't they adapt to 8472 after months of combat?

Yes, we do. We look at the actual observed properties of the thing in question and don't make assumptions beyond that. Of course, a lot of the time that stops you from making sweeping generalisations about stuff, but that's no bad thing in my view.

When an observed phenomena clearly violates the laws of physics (warp drive, transporters, phasers, etc) we must provide an explanation of our own. When no such violation is clearly evident then we assume that what we see is what we get.

[Sionnach Glic]

After we met the species in the flesh, we don't see the Borg ever even think about going hand-to-hand with them!

Maybe because they were getting killed in HtH? Then dosen't this evidence they don't have KE defence?

Off topic question, what would happen if you punched someone with a KE shield? Electrocution? Nothing?

[Captain Seafort]

Off topic question, what would happen if you punched someone with a KE shield? Electrocution? Nothing?

I expect it would depend on how the shield operated. If there's a current running through it you'd get zapped, if it simply exerts force then it would be like hitting a solid object.

[DBS]

I didn't mean to say that individual Borg were independent I promise I know better. Just that in ST:FC we see that the attacking drones switch effortlessly from ambling slowly with their shields active, taking phaser fire, to catching and assimilating the crew, for which under the way we are thinking so far in this debate means to me that they dropped their shields. So either that is one of the few tiny decisions an individual Borg drone can make, or the collective is controlling them very finely. Either way, the effect, to me, is that an individual drone's shields may change status quickly depending on the situation.

SO, to sum up my argument:

1.) Borg shields can adapt to energy weapons, and once adapted can survive that attack unless the shield is somehow overpowered.

2.) Borg shields may include a KE component, which explains people bouncing of Seven and Worf being knocked back in Best of Both Worlds, as well as Data's capture.

3.) This kinetic component insulates the drone from the outside environment, to the extent that it is hard to assimilate a victim with the shield up.

4.) So it would make sense that the kinetic component is lowered when in hand-to-hand combat when it is deemed that the target will be defeated and assimilated. If, however, the target is attacking/a threat, the shield can be raised (provided the danger is realized fast enough)

[Graham Kennedy]

Check out the ep that introduces 8472 again.

If you disagree with my conclusion please give your own theory as to how being hit by one of 8472's claws is different from being hit by Worf's sword.

I repeat - go watch the ep. I'm not doing your research for you.

When an observed phenomena clearly violates the laws of physics (warp drive, transporters, phasers, etc) we must provide an explanation of our own. When no such violation is clearly evident then we assume that what we see is what we get.

YOU may make that assumption. WE do not.

[Captain Seafort]

I repeat - go watch the ep. I'm not doing your research for you.

8472 demonstrated an extremely active immune system, preventing assimilation, and destroying alien tissue if that alien became infected with 8472 tissue. There was nothing to imply that they were cutting the Borg apart (as demonstrated by the disjointed bits of Borg torso in the "artwork") in any way that a knife or sword could not.

When an observed phenomena clearly violates the laws of physics (warp drive, transporters, phasers, etc) we must provide an explanation of our own. When no such violation is clearly evident then we assume that what we see is what we get.

YOU may make that assumption. WE do not.

What assumption? I merely state that there is no evidence that Borg personal shields negate conservation of momentum, therefore we must assume that the effectiveness of those shields is limited by CoM.

[Sionnach Glic]

1.) Borg shields can adapt to energy weapons, and once adapted can survive that attack unless the shield is somehow overpowered.

Agreed.

2.) Borg shields may include a KE component, which explains people bouncing of Seven and Worf being knocked back in Best of Both Worlds, as well as Data's capture.

I'll have to come back to you later on that.

3.) This kinetic component insulates the drone from the outside environment, to the extent that it is hard to assimilate a victim with the shield up.

We've seen borg drones killed with plasma before. Since plasma is (IIRC) gas and not energy, this suggests that they aren't insulated from the enviroment.

4.) So it would make sense that the kinetic component is lowered when in hand-to-hand combat when it is deemed that the target will be defeated and assimilated. If, however, the target is attacking/a threat, the shield can be raised (provided the danger is realized fast enough)

Several times we see drones shoving people who are charging at them or pushing them away. (not asimilating them) If they had KE shields why would they need to bother?

[DBS]

3.) This kinetic component insulates the drone from the outside environment, to the extent that it is hard to assimilate a victim with the shield up.

We've seen borg drones killed with plasma before. Since plasma is (IIRC) gas and not energy, this suggests that they aren't insulated from the enviroment.

What I meant was that it might be hard to grab onto someone and assimilate them with a shield up. (although they seem to be able to operate in a vacuum, but that may not be the shield). The plasma is just a gassy state of matter, but it contains a lot of heat energy due to its state. Maybe it overpowered the shields?

[Captain Seafort]

1.) Borg shields can adapt to energy weapons, and once adapted can survive that attack unless the shield is somehow overpowered.

No problem

2.) Borg shields may include a KE component, which explains people bouncing of Seven and Worf being knocked back in Best of Both Worlds, as well as Data's capture.

Bouncing off people does not imply a shield - Seven must mass a lot more than she appears to, given the amount of metal in her body, so it would be the equivalent of bouncing off a Rugby prop. Worf and Data were knocked back by a shield within the Borg hive, and I do not question the existence of kinetic shields within the ships - only as part of the drones' personal shield